Ed Brill

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1. 1  tonyo www.tonyollivier.com | 9/1/2004 12:19:04 AM

   but what if the whole IT department has started on Atkins ? - but of course - cheesecake is allowed on no carb high fat diet isn't it ! :)

1. 2  Nathan T. Freeman  | 9/1/2004 2:56:07 AM

   I think my response would have been "Really? Are you guys looking for a technology provider or a caterer? I guess Microsoft has decided that they can't compete with IBM, so they'll compete with Sysco and Armark instead."

   Krispy Kreme? Give me a break. MS invested a whole $2 a week in them.

1. 3  Neil http://domino-guru.co.uk | 9/1/2004 3:00:01 AM

   My company (certainly) in the first few years revolved around Coffee (Starbucks esp Frappacino) and good chinese meals....

   The vendor that bought the most coffee or took us to the best chinese restaurant ( Yang Sing http://www.yang-sing.com )seemed to do well.

   So I can say that in the UK food has for the last 5 years at least been an important deal clincher !

   So if any IBM/Lotus bods are in Manchester.......

1. 4  james www.redmonk.com/jgovernor | 9/1/2004 4:45:37 AM

   How is a Krispy Kreme donut like Microsoft Exchange?

   I am sure there is a gag in there somewhere

1. 5  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com | 9/1/2004 6:17:25 AM

   sigh... resorting to buying the business, Ed...

   I don't even know you any more...

   :-)

1. 6  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 9/1/2004 6:48:39 AM

   Tony - it's your guys who are being insensitive to Atkins -- donuts? Every week!??! ;)

1. 7  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/1/2004 8:16:11 AM

   oh the irony, will this be a sign of the end times as Microsoft spins their use of the doughnuts to get the manufacturers of these sweet delights to change their mail system?

1. 8  Nanook  | 9/1/2004 8:18:10 AM

   </mooch on>

   Hi Ed!

   Lotus is not very visible at our site either!

   </mooch off>

   LOL -- that will be a funny addition to your "The Boss Loves Microsoft..."??

1. 9  Bruce Elgort http://www.bruceelgort.com | 9/1/2004 8:42:10 AM

   Please send some White Castle's out West while your at it :-)

1. 10  Kevin http://ndp.mtl.cgi.com/DominoPreacher.nsf | 9/1/2004 9:00:39 AM

   Well... the client I'm currently working for is one of the largest Notes/Domino clients in Canada... and I hear there is talk of completely going to the "other side" since Krispy Kremes are hard to come by in this part of Canada.

   So better send some cheesecake up here as well.

   :)

1. 11  The Lion King http://bilykspride.servehttp.com | 9/1/2004 9:02:53 AM

   Wow! The things people say.... Nevermind that Notes/Domino is a superior product and does more in its little finger than M$ can do with 5 products.... I didn't know that M$ is doughnut powered.

   And James, to answer your question:

   Both have holes in them!!!

1. 12  Mike Lazar  | 9/1/2004 9:08:20 AM

   Ed -- You should have asked! I've got some ins at Eli's (never paid for a cheesecake or meal at the steakhouse). I probably could have gotten you something extra special...

1. 13  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/1/2004 9:13:30 AM

   Bruce - I think the last time I had a slider (slang for White Castles for those who do not know) was wayyyy back in '87 after a long night of having a few beers..I am not sure which made me feel worse:-)

   Ed - better take some of those kremes to Moscow!

1. 14  john http://www.johndavidhead.com | 9/1/2004 9:25:43 AM

   Hey, i represent that comment about becoming a sales guy! ... oh wait, i meant resent ... ugh! Seriously, it just came to me ... and Ed ran with it.

1. 15  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 9/1/2004 1:20:15 PM

   @6 - Yes, Chris, I believe Krispy Kreme is a Notes shop. They've been a public reference before.

   @8 - Bruce, I don't think I've -ever- had a White Castle. And I don't plan on starting now.

   @9 - Kevin, do I know about this (seriously)? Please ping me offline (ed_brill at us.ibm.com or ed at edbrill.com).

   @11 - Mike, thanks for that -- I'll keep you in mind the next time I need to sweeten the deal. ;)

1. 16  Person from that anonymous company  | 9/1/2004 2:56:22 PM

   I'm eating the heath bar crunch right now. :) It *is* good and thank you for the sweets Ed; but, I think you missed the forte of the comment in the meeting. It wasn't the Krispy Kremes that were important, it's the person that accompanies them.

   The person that walks around to various people asking what they can do to help.

   The person that hand-holds the users through a 130 Meg download that Lotus calls a "patch."

   The person that notices a developer wading through a JavaScript book with the designer open and calls in an ER to support to say: "Hey, perhaps we should ship with some JavaScript documentation. I saw this poor guy struggle for 2 hours on a simple problem."

   The person that takes 15 minutes to ask the executive's admin assistant what would make his life easier in Notes? Why does he want to change to Outlook? Is it because you can turn a highlighter on with two clicks and choose any color as opposed to three clicks for three color choices? Is it because when you choose "Checkmarks" from the text list menu, you don't get anything that resembles a check mark?

   The person that watches a novice user press "Cancel" twenty-four times when opening a database because they don't want to cross-certify Lotus/IBM. ("We've been told not to trust anyone when it comes to security.")

   Oh, and the person that occasionally brings us sweets because he's our PARTNER and FRIEND.

   But really - thanks for the Cheesecake. It was well received. Now, where's the person?

1. 17  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/1/2004 3:21:58 PM

   Hello Person who is nameless:-)

   I look at this response and a lot of things in here I can see are fair observations, but in fairness were these specific items brought up in the meeting for Ed or others to address? Have you ever given anyone besides the Microsoft "friend" a chance to address them?

   I would like to offer my thoughts/comments on these one by one:

   "The person that walks around to various people asking what they can do to help."

   Who are the various people and why do you not recognize this as a potential weakness in the company's support structure that this "person" is using as an exploit to get more business? What is this "person" offering to help with?

   "The person that hand-holds the users through a 130 Meg download that Lotus calls a "patch"."

   As opposed to a "patch" on an operating system that has holes the day it is shipped? Who is doing the download and are they not technically qualified to do a download and upgrade without hand-holding? Again, another potential control weakness. Incidentally, I have never heard the word "patch" in the Lotus world.

   "The person that notices a developer wading through a JavaScript book with the designer open and calls in an ER to support to say: "Hey, perhaps we should ship with some JavaScript documentation. I saw this poor guy struggle for 2 hours on a simple problem.""

   A developer that has to wade through a JavaScript book, which is an essential web development skill is going to have problems no matter what the platform. But heck, if you want a developer to spend at least 4 times as long to develop a fully integrated application as it would take in Notes, go for it. I will concede, however, that the use of JavaScript in Notes could be better documented. By the same token, I know I can go to the Lotus Developer Domain and either find the answer in one of the discussion fora or post the question, Microsoft has NOTHING comparable to this. And their user documentation is not the best in the world. Give me a day with this developer and the JavaScript problems would be gone.

   "The person that takes 15 minutes to ask the executive's admin assistant what would make his life easier in Notes? Why does he want to change to Outlook? Is it because you can turn a highlighter on with two clicks and choose any color as opposed to three clicks for three color choices? Is it because when you choose "Checkmarks" from the text list menu, you don't get anything that resembles a check mark?"

   Granted, these are UI challenges, but hardly a business case to make a large migration. From a corporate governance standppoint, unless a valid business case can be made that specifically address a stregic business goal and objective, migrations such as these (in either direction) should not be taken. Why? because you have then broken your fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders if you are a public company.

   "The person that watches a novice user press "Cancel" twenty-four times when opening a database because they don't want to cross-certify Lotus/IBM. ("We've been told not to trust anyone when it comes to security.")"

   That is a communications issue within your company and can be easily rectified in training or through effective communications with employees. See? Another potential control vulnerability.

   "Oh, and the person that occasionally brings us sweets because he's our PARTNER and FRIEND."

   Do not think for a minute that this person is your friend. The bottom line is that they want to make a sale and they will do it any way they can. Did you ever think to establish a relationship with a local IBM Business Partner that can help with these issues as well? I guarantee, they would be your friend and bring donuts as well.

   Business decisions such as these should never be based on friendship.They should be based on doing a full assessment and if you cannot build a business case, then it is out the window, Krispy Kremes or not.

1. 18  Another person from that company (who was at the meeting)  | 9/1/2004 3:34:19 PM

   Ed,

   I am surprised at your logic. Post number 15, also from "the company", is exactly right! Those comments had nothing to do with donuts or any other food item. The point was... we don't see enough interaction with the people who sell us Domino.

   There are vendors and there are partners. A partner gets to know your business. Understands your challenges and struggles. Determines how they can assist you in meeting your goals, even if it doesn't involve the partners product. They are in it for the long run. They want to earn the right to keep the business, rather than feel they are entitled to it. A partner provides a solution.

   We would have never needed to say the things we said in that meeting, to a partner. A partner would not have been so out of sync with us that they would have thought a box of donuts was all that our relationship was missing.

   A vendor, on the other hand, cares more about their business than yours. A vendor focuses on the next sale. A vendor bring in donuts to get you to buy something, rather than to say 'thanks' for business they already have. A vendor provides a product.

   Which do you suppose you are?

   There will still be plenty of people who will eat and enjoy the cheesecake, so thanks. Those of us who where at the meeting and know it's 'vendor' cheesecake, rather than 'partner' cheesecake, may stop a pick up a donut on the way home.

   :-)

1. 19  tonyo www.tonyollivier.com | 9/1/2004 3:41:21 PM

   what's really funny about this whole situation is that Microsoft believes that IBM has thousands of people embedded in the customer accounts. IBM believes the same about Microsoft.

   However - Microsoft is like Krispy Creme - they have no confusion on what kind of company they are - it's a software company.

   IBM however, is a software/hardware/services/financial/microelectronic etc etc. is bigger better ?

1. 20  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/1/2004 3:42:27 PM

   Person #2:

   I will ask the question I asked in #16:

   Have you all tried to start or do you have a relationship with one of the IBM Business Partners in your area?

1. 21  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 9/1/2004 4:09:35 PM

   I'm impressed that these guys (and I don't know the gender of the posters, obviously) walked in.

   Now -this- is something I can work with. First, there was indeed a long list of issues and concerns brought up in that meeting. I can tell you that I've spent some part of every single day since working on it -- but I can't be in California every day, so you'll have to take my word for it. And I don't want to spend the time on the blog (in public) to go further.

   In NO WAY did I mean to imply or say that a box of donuts was ALL that our relationship was missing -- but I felt like it was a component that could at least show that I'm paying attention.

   There is actually a lot of insight in the two postings here that I can work with. I can't change certain things about the way IBM does business, but I can make sure that we are focusing on the right issues, in -partnership-.

1. 22  Mark Hughes  | 9/1/2004 5:14:30 PM

   Automated installs of updates to the client.

   ECL settings pushed through R6 policies.

   Supporting users questions and training them on how to use the product.

   Basic Domino Admin tasks.

1. 23  EdFisher  | 9/1/2004 8:18:30 PM

   Wow! Shine my shoes while you are at it!

1. 24  Nathan T. Freeman  | 9/2/2004 6:57:04 AM

   I'd like to second (third) Mark and Christopher's remarks. The items mentioned in 15 should be the province of your internal IT support and administration, not the vendor. Why are you lacking ECL administration? Why are your email administrators not communicating with executive users over interface concerns? Why are you not managing upgrade deployment with SmartUpgrade?

   The stunning irony is that you're pointing to a set of problems that don't occur with Microsoft products because they don't even offer the technological capability. ECL messages? Don't you WISH your users got those on Outlook! JavaScript documentation? Can you say GOOGLE? (Though I'll admit the MSDN DHTML documentation is the best around.) Patch deployment? Has Microsoft built an internal SMS deployment for you, or did you have to hire skilled administration for that? Or did you simply not get a solution from them -- just an acknowledgement of the problem? Small interface tweaks to the mail client? { Link }

   I just can't fathom how some people look at this kind of relationship. You're basically saying "Microsoft comes and holds our hand and sympathizes with our problems." Sure, but they don't SOLVE any of them. They just keep delaying shipments of new versions and releasing code with massive vulnerabilities that bring entire companies to a grinding halt every few months. But I guess that's okay, because at least they listen and nod.

   Somehow this reminds me of battered-wife syndrome.

1. 25  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/2/2004 8:31:09 AM

   my Lord, Nathan and I actually agreeing on something:-)

1. 26  Rock http://www.LotusGeek.com | 9/2/2004 9:23:48 AM

   OK, I am going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment here. The things and suggestions that Chris, Nathan, et. al. have mentioned are great - but I believe the point is still being missed. I think the "mystery client" is saying that someone reprsenting IBM (whether it be IBM itself OR a "qualified business partner" -- hint hint) should have taken the time to tell them the things you have, on site, personally. Yes, you have provided tactical solutions - but in reality the tactical solution to a problem is a small (maybe the smallest) part of an ongoing relationship with a client. The personal relationship with a client is, and should be, paramount.

   When I was with a large consulting firm (The Future Now/XLConnect) I used to use the phrase "Show the love" (from Jerry Maguire, I think). When someone was asking where I was going as I was heading out, I told them I was "going to show some love to a client" - which meant that there was no specific problem at the client site, or maybe there was a small thing or two (that could have been handled offsite), but the point was I was going there in person to do it. I wanted my clients to "feel the love" from me, in a personal way, so that they would view me as a part of the team and would remain loyal to me.

   A few years later I left XLConnect (now called XeroxConnect, and is nothing like it was) to open the Atlanta branch of Synergistics with my business mentor (a man named David Cohen). David and I built a great team there, and we wanted to ensure that all our consultants had the same dedication to "showing the love" that we did. Our innovative office manager even had cheap pens printed with my catchphrase on it - "Show the love, feel the love", which was a shortened version (to fit on the pen) of "If you want to feel the love, you have to show the love".

   THAT is what this client (and most clients) crave. They want to be shown the love. That is the point they are trying to make, I believe.

   Rock

1. 27  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/2/2004 9:38:03 AM

   Rock,

   I think we (or at least I) did pick up on the point when asking if they had a relationship with an IBM Business Partner.

   I would have to disagree that my points were tactical per se. Rather, they may be symptomatic of larger control issues in the organization. "Showing the love" is great in concept, tough in delivery. Why, because showing the love can often result in the client always wanting free help from their "partner" instead of working to conduct a root cause analysis to find the true source of their pain. And how much "love" do you show before you say enough is enough, "if you want the milk, marry the cow".

   Stepping back though, this has been a consistent problem with customers' perceptions of IBM when they feel (warning to Alan and Ed: anecdote coming) they can't even get eye contact across the room (sales, quotes, support, you name it) and they get frustrated. But this takes me back to my earlier point. If the MS friend makes the sale and gets aa company to migrate to a more expensive, less reliable system, how much of the weekly love will he/she be showing then?

   And yes, this customer needs a strong business partner to give them the answers to these questions and more! Then the love will be flowing.

1. 28  Rock http://www.LotusGeek.com | 9/2/2004 9:49:31 AM

   Chris, clients don't mind paying for the love (treading on PG-13 territory with this analogy ;) ). And my point is that a partner who is showing the love would probably have made the suggestions you did and done the things you suggestion straight away, thereby minimizing the attention needed.

   Showing the love is a mindset. It isn't going to a site for no reason - it is going to a site to address whatever pops up (and yes, it is billable), to ensure that controls are in place, best practices are being followed, and in general everyone is happy (at least with what you have control/influence over). But most important it is showing that you care about the health of that organization, and are proactive in making sure it stays healthy.

   Maybe that's it in a nutshell. Showing the Love is a proactive mindset, delivered in a personal and personable way.

   --Rock

1. 29  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 9/2/2004 9:53:47 AM

   I have to say, I agree with Rocky.

1. 30  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 9/2/2004 10:03:08 AM

   that was actually the whole point of me sending along these cheesecakes -- I -can't- sit across the table from these people every week. I -can- work with the IBMers who are responsible for doing so to improve the relationship -- but I also want the customer to know that the worldwide IBM Lotus organization is standing behind our front line, and we're here to make this a successful -partnership-. I think there are a lot of levels where this can be done. I'd love to say more about the history with this particular customer but it's probably not real fair to either IBM or them to do so.

   Anyway, we're on the case. And I appreciate all thoughts that have been shared here, especially those from the customer directly.

1. 31  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/2/2004 10:15:48 AM

   Rock,

   I could build on that analogy, but then I would be crossing my own line in the sand;-).

   I do not think we are in disagreement, rather I wanted to show the love in my post that a partner such as you or I or anyone else would have as part of our relationship, or that would have been pointed out in a control self-assessment conducted by this company with an outside systems auditor serving as a facilitator (hint, hint?:-)). That was my free love...and nobody touch that one please:-)

   But I think this thread has resulted in some great discourse, especially with the contribution from the customer that shall not be named and I am grateful that they stepped forward and contributed. Maybe we should send them some Vidalia onions or some other Georgia delicacy in thanks:-)

1. 32  Rock http://www.LotusGeek.com | 9/2/2004 11:07:10 AM

   Too bad boiled peanuts are like Krispy Kreme doughnuts - they aren't good when cold... ;)

   --Rock

1. 33  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/2/2004 11:10:18 AM

   and not the same unless bought at a roadside vendor with a mispeld sign:-).

1. 34  Nathan T. Freeman  | 9/2/2004 11:31:51 AM

   Rock, I'm not disagreeing with you. But you use a great analogy here, too. Think of it like Jerry Maguire. How patient does Rod have to be to wait for Jerry to FINALLY land him a deal? We see him showing the love by being there again and again... but honestly, can you blame Rod for nearly dropping him several times? And if he HADN'T made it happen in the end, how many more chance should he get?

   Now, it's MS coming in there and showing the love to the client. It's true, IBM really ought to be in there doing that, too. But Chris is right that it's the company's FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY to *NOT* make choices just based on showing the love. Sure you get donuts, but you don't get functioning enterprise systems. What's the vendor supposed to be providing here?

   That's why it reminds me of a battered wife. How many cooing apologies and bouquets of flowers outweigh the beatings? How long until the wife wakes up and says "he might show my love most of the time, but man he really pounds on me once in a while!?"

1. 35  More devil’s advocate  | 9/3/2004 5:29:25 AM

   I don't think it's entirely fair to jump to quick conclusions about the solutions to the problems mentioned from "the company."

   Some possibilities:

   Those that have mentioned "SmartUpgrade" as an option: Has it occurred to you that SmartUpgrade may be used at "the company," but they have a problem with 130 Meg patches?

   IBM/Lotus can call the fixes from 6.52 to 6.53 a significant product release - but, the fact is: it's a patch. Bugfixes. At most, a pile of bugfixes should be 10 Meg of download. Perhaps the customer has complained about this and hasn't been "heard?"

   UI problems with the Notes Client can easily turn into reasons for a company to switch to a different email client. How many people need a training course on how to use msn.com or aol.com's email? Compare that to the number of people that need a course on using email in Lotus Notes. 2 UI problems in the Notes client isn't a good business case, but 100 probably is. I can name about 40 off the top of my head that Lotus is completely aware of and has no plans to fix.

   You think you could walk your mother through setting up the Notes client for passthrough from scratch? How about explaining the replicator page? The competition has a button that says "Send and Receive Mail." Louts has a cryptic icon that opens a page with a "Start Now" button on it. Oh, and make sure "send outgoing mail" and "receive internet mail" is displayed and checked - if not, check your location document ... let me tell you how to get to that... other than the things in the File | Preferences | User Preferences menu, it's got all the important information about how your Notes Client is configured. Yeah, it's kind of like "Tools | Preferences..." when you have the mail file opened. <sheesh>

   It's understandable why people jumped to "ECL Administration" on the cross-cert issue, however, Lotus Notes has a habit of highlighting a problem within the details of a function, then charging right ahead and causing more problems. Let's say the function is "Open a database." The user clicks an icon to "open a database" and gets an error message. The error message should give the user the option to quit trying to open the database. Instead, Lotus Notes reports the error, the user presses the "Cancel" button assuming it refers to the function they just perfomed and gets 20 more error messages. Understandably, this is a tough problem to fix given Notes' architecture, but it's not unfixable. Perhaps adding try..catch to LotusScript would help.

   .. and one comment that I have to respond to: "By the same token, I know I can go to the Lotus Developer Domain and either find the answer in one of the discussion fora or post the question, Microsoft has NOTHING comparable to this."

   Um: { Link }

1. 36  Nathan T. Freeman  | 9/3/2004 6:57:19 AM

   Much of this is fair criticism, but this point...

   "At most, a pile of bugfixes should be 10 Meg of download."

   ...ain't exactly a reason to give Microsoft credit over IBM.

   Anyway, the debating the merits of some particular complaint list misses the fundamental point. If MS is coming in to "show the love," but isn't providing credible solutions, then our mystery company is putting their vendor priorities in the wrong place. There's no question that Notes could use a massive number of improvements -- the difference is that IBM is delivering.

1. 37  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 9/3/2004 7:30:00 AM

   Good for you Ed for being fair and balanced here, but in my experience, the LDD Fora (except for some search "features"), have always been easier for me to use. I have always experienced great difficulty on the MS sites/Fora trying to find solutions to specific problem areas (like use of certain VB Objects). But in fairness, that could just be an ease of use characteristic that comes from familiarity.

   But I still go back to my original statement. If a developer is scartching their head reading a JavaScript book, they should not have to depend on the MS "friend" from sending them documentation (though it is nice they do), but should be taking proactive steps outside of the book. I will also reiterate that when initially using JavaScript within Notes/Domino and not using a JavaScript resource page, it can be daunting as there are things you have to do that are *NOT* docucumented well.

   And you are right, we are responding in sort of a vacuum as we do not know the history, culture and environment of this company. That is why the very first thing an IS Auditor is required to do is to gain and understanding of a company and its environment before doing anything else.

   And how small is the latest XP "Patch"? And how much more is going to be gutted from Longhorn and how many other products from MS that depend on these features are going to be pushed out to 2007 and beyond (and this is according to MS themselves)?