I'm actually sitting in Peter O'Kelly's presentation at the Microsoft "Optimizing Communication and Collaboration with Microsoft Technologies" seminar.  Generously, Microsoft is running the event at a site where wifi is available in the conference room.  Peter's presentation is really good, but I'm multitasking a bit.

My e-mail bag this morning included this link: http://www.microsoft.com/BusinessSolutions/industrysolutions.aspx.  It is a part of the Microsoft Business Solutions website, and one that highlights Industry Solutions available for MBS.  Because the site uses a frame layout, users might not notice the URLs of the actual pages that list the industry solutions, such as this one.  Hover over that a moment...what does that URL say?  .NSF?
Image:A surprising Domino 4.6.2 website

Indeed, it appears that a part of the MBS website is running Domino.  The page source provides full disclosure:

!-- Lotus-Domino (Release 4.6.2 - July 23, 1998 on Windows NT/Intel) --
I'm not even sure what to say about that.
(Thanks, Edwin)

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  1. 1  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com |

    Ok.. I suppose you could spin this to say that Microsoft *is* really interested in just learning how to best integrate their offerings with the offerings of other vendors...

    But 4.6.2????

  1. 2  Carl Tyler http://www.iminstant.com |

    It could mean IBM did not manage to give them enough reasons to upgrade and their maintenance isn't valid?

    So you're desktop machine is linux now right and no servers in IBM are running Microsoft, and I wasn't at an account the other day where IBM is installing and setting up Exchange for the customer?

    I'm sure we can expect a post saying how the financials from IBM are in Excel format and not 1-2-3.

    I don't think this one is a good one to ding MS for.

  1. 3  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com |

    Oh come on, Carl....

    Other than the fact I think most people would find this somewhat more funny than anything else, I think you're comparing apples to oranges with your comparisons.

    The equivalent comparison would be to find an IBM webpage serving up content via ASP.

  1. 4  Sean Burgess http://www.phigsaidwhat.com |

    Shouldn't we be congratulating them for trying to use the best tool for the job??? They're just going with the Best of Breed. I mean, if the server is on Domino 4.6.2, you have to wonder how long the database has been in use. Probably a lot longer than any of the other applications on their web site.


  1. 5  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com |

    @2 Carl, my point is that MS's CTO is often on record as to how Microsoft runs on Microsoft. IBM is much more into heterogeneity -- IBM has a diverse portfolio of business expertise, and that does include Exchange implementations. Let's not take this too far afield -- it's not a "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" analogy when IBM makes no such claims of being 100% IBM.

  1. 6  Roz  |

    4.6? No wonder they think Domino is poo!

  1. 7  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ |

    I got this link posted to my blog this morning and will write later about it, but I do have a couple of thoughts:

    1. At least they replaced the twisties;

    2. Maybe they did such a poorly designed interface on 4.6.2 to show customers how "Bad" Domino is for web sites?

    Hmmmm...and @2 Carl, what fun is it if we can't have a little chuckle at the absurdity of the site linked to?:-)

  1. 8  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    That is awesome!!

    Carl, I think one of the points is that MS does claim to be homogenous with their products. MS wants every company to use all MS all the time.

    IBM isn't doing that, though. IBM uses MS stuff and supports it. I've noticed the trend from the past couple of Lotuspheres where presenters are basically only using powerpoint now. Nothing wrong with that and IBM isn't hiding from it.

    I just think it's funny - maybe you should too... =)

  1. 9  Robert Wenc www.WebsFear.com |

    Maybe they had troubles upgrading to R5 or ND6?? I think they're holding out for Workplace. LOL

    In all fairness, this server probably came over from one of the companies Microsoft recently purchased.

  1. 10  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net |

    Maybe their so-called migration tools are not as easy to use as they tell customers!

  1. 11  james governor www.redmonk.com/jgovernor |

    Come on Ed your internal infrastructure still has plenty of IE only apps. Great Plains uses Pervasive SQL too. From my perspective the most interesting question is probably how long will it take MS to yank that server and replace it...

    oh yeah MS uses SAP and Siebel too, so...

  1. 12  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ |

    It gets even better:

    { Link }

    { Link }

    and they have a view named "0":-)

  1. 13  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com |

    @11 see @5 and @10. ;)

  1. 14  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com/web.nsf/htdocs/BBUN693HVL.htm |

    Good for them. And we shouldnt criticise. However, I think *someone* should get them up to v6.5 at least..

    I volunteer!

    --* Bill

  1. 15  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ |

    And in fairness, they seem to have a default frameset problem, because if you click on the view type selection links on the left, you go to ASP views...

  1. 16  Roberto Boccadoro  |

    How long this will last ? Ed's blog is pretty well known (to say the least) and we know lots of MS people are reading this (hi Tony [both of you], Hi Cliff); my bet is that the site will not last long :-)

  1. 17  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com |

    Personally, I think this may explain why they hired Gary... :-) *Someone* has to maintain the db.

  1. 18  Nathan T. Freeman  |

    This does look like Great Plains-related materials.

    I will say that the server is reasonably well-secured. I won't say how I know. :)

  1. 19  Sean Burgess http://www.phigsaidwhat.com |

    Yeah, they seem to have locked down the server pretty well. That's really ashame. :(

    And I think that James and Carl are missing the absurdity of the situation. It would be like accessing the Apple web site and finding Real Audio streaming server running on Windows 95.


  1. 20  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ |

    @18 - The same way the rest of us do :-)

  1. 21  David Bailey  |

    @7 In the early versions of Domino the default expand/collapse indicators were + and -.

    @17 I doubt the database has had any maintenance in years.

  1. 22  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com |

    This news absolutely devastated a co-worker who always defends the Microsoft perspective in our area, and has the rest of the local workers rolling in the aisles.

  1. 23  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net/bensblog.nsf |

    So now it makes sense why MS bought so many Notes/Domino licenses recently...I thought they were just for Ray's team.

  1. 24  Andy Foshee www.TheFoshees.net |

    @12 - has anyone noticed that the view in one of the links is to a single document? And that it defaults to edit mode? =)

    On a serious note, congrats to MS (or their recently acquired co-defendants) on using the right tool for the right job. I'm sure there are several of us who'd be happy to hop right in and fix that web site right up for them. And it'd probably take less time than finding the coffee machine. ;-)

  1. 25  tonyo - the new implants work very well thank you  |

    never say never.. { Link }

    But the reverse is true as well. I'm guessing there's lots of SQL servers within IBM ( maybe not as public sites however! :)

    @16 - hi Roberto - nice to virtually see you..

  1. 26  Cliff Reeves  |

    Notes 4.6? This is hugely embarrasing. I have sent a strongly worded note suggesting they upgrade to R6 asap :-)

  1. 27  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ |

    @24 Andy - Nice site. Is it done in Domino?;-)

  1. 28  Kevin http://www.DominoPreacher.com |

    I love it!!! I can't wait to send this to the .Net Evangelists in my division :-)

  1. 29  Claude  |

    "As a convenience, we provide links to other sites that may be of interest to you but are not under Microsoft Corporation's control. Microsoft Corporation and/or its affiliates is not responsible for the availability of or the content contained in any linked site."

    Footnote found on most detail documents. Seems to me that MS is saying that they do take responsibility for the availability of these documents (Not a link to another site). They must feel pretty confident with their Domino environment... Good for them. See, years without maintenance, running pretty, who said they didn't understand !!! :-)

  1. 30    |


    The truth it, that we freakin' don't need all those transaction monitors, JMS stuff, Threading, Webservices, O/R-mappers, IOC-containers, xml and all this hype.

    Those were just invented by marketing guys who wanted YOUR MONEY.

    You can run all this computer stuff on Domino 4.6.

    Just code down some @functions and Lotus Script and you're enterprise will be fully computerized. Cause its Rapid Application Development, you know. A lot of people don't know. They believe in what those smart marketing guys from Microsoft say. But let us tell you. You are wrong.

  1. 31  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com |

    @26 - LOL... Nice recovery, Cliff... :-)

  1. 32  Bill M.  |

    Not being a zealot of either camp, on this topic I have to give it to Ed, and admonish Carl. On a site that is marketing Microsoft products and services – to not use your own tools and software on such a site is a marketing blunder. If they were to have clearly said that the pages were being presented as an example of integrated solutions working together I could have bought that story line, but the Marketing and IT guys that thought this was a good idea, may need to go back to Business 101. It appears that Microsoft has stopped hiring the best and brightest!

  1. 33    |

    They are so busy building better software at microsoft that they don't have no time to update legacy apps.

    If its running...

    We all know that THIS result can be acomplished with much fewer lines of code with asp.net than with notes 4.6.

    Perhaps they have nobody who understands the complicated javaScript/html in the column formula of the view.

  1. 34  Dan  |

    They would upgrade if they knew they didn't have to rip and replace ;0

  1. 35  Gary  |

    I think it's great that there is interop on the Microsoft site. Notes 4.6 is old but if it works for this, why change it; reuse it. It goes to the point "migrate what makes sense"

  1. 36  Sean Burgess http://www.phigsaidwhat.com |

    @35 - How come MS doesn't think the same thing when it comes to their users not upgrading to the latest & greatest versions of Windows, Office, or Exchange? Oh, that's right, there's no money in it for MS if user's don't upgrade!!!!


  1. 37  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com |

    I'm thinking that they hired IBM Global Services for the implemenation....last month. They're working the next phase now, a new, $3.5 Million Internotes Upgrade......

  1. 38    |

    I recommend anybody the discussion of this site as motivation to understand some openSores project (like me: Am making my spring-Pojos transactional after a hard day. Its 11 a.m.)

    Serious: How many times a week do we have a discussion about integrating some MS-Word/Excel stuff in some Domino app in our national notes forum?

    I've heard some companies are running their Domino on Windows OS? Great scandal.

    3000 years of civilization, just do have some phonky "we are the guys with green flag, the guys with the blue flag are real assheads" discussion. Day in. Day out.

    Sisters and Brothers: We can do much better.

  1. 39  Almar Diehl http://www.domino-weblog.com |

    Maybe someone should go tell them that upgrading a Domino infrastructure cannot be compared to upgrading an Exchange infrastructure.

  1. 40  Ben Rose http://blog.jaffacake.net |

    I think it's a real shame that Domino 4.6 box isn't running on OS/2. ;O)

  1. 41  Nathan T. Freeman  |

    "Sisters and Brothers: We can do much better."

    *eye roll* Some people are just hopelessly humor-impaired.

  1. 42  Axel Janssen  |

    *laughing* or different humor

  1. 43  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com |

    Trackback from Jack Dausman, Leadership by Numbers:

    { Link }

    This is just odd, from all sorts of angles. Microsoft, a company which markets a seamless range of integrated operating systems and software products, is found out to be using a retired version of IBM/Lotus Domino for web development. For Domino professionals, what the Microsoft web site does (and does nicely, by the way) is exactly what makes Domino so appealing--it integrates well with other environments and is a flexible web development platform.

  1. 44  hipslu http://www.konfabulieren.com |


    { Link }

  1. 45  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    It just gets better... statrep not locked down?

    I especially love the for server: OS/2 WAOP - (Powered by Notes).

    Man, what a great ending to my week...should I press the Delete button? Nah, wouldn't be prudent at this juncture.

  1. 46  Danny Lawrence  |

    I don't remember the format of the 4.6 Statrep database, but look at this:

    Session Information:

    Boot ID: 4692332

    Server started at: 05/07/98 09:17:07 AM

    Statistics collected at: 05/07/98 09:23:40 AM

    Reporter task running for: 0:5:53 (hr:min:sec)

    Server Location:

    Does that mean the the server hasn't been rebooted since 5/7/98 -- just over 7 years ago?

    If so this explains several things, like why it hasn't been retired, it just keeps running. Not to mention the fact that has anyone ever kept an Exchange server (even one as lightly loaded as this one is) runnign for 7 years without a reboot?

  1. 47  Axel Janssen  |

    I see loads of new opportunities for system integration. A domino website can be integrated in a html-frameset. Venture capital, anybody?

  1. 48  jwylie  |

    { Link }

  1. 49  Eric Parsons startingblockcomputing.com |

    @44 - too funny. But somehow I think that will be "dinged" as a security risk of IBM, not the admins that set it up.

  1. 50  Nathan T. Freeman  |

    "Does that mean the the server hasn't been rebooted since 5/7/98 -- just over 7 years ago?"

    No. Look at the results closely. They just turn off the stat reporting in 1999. I'd honestly be surprised if the server still had the same ID file.

    It *was* the primary GPS web server at one point, and then turned into their partner server.

    It's also clearly been around for a while, since a lot of the reporting goes back to '98. And it was V3 at some point...

    "Periodic macro agent - Error opening CORE\COREAPP.NS3: File is in use by another program"

    Anybody know who Notes1/CorpComm might have been?

  1. 51  David DeWell http://intrigue.iiui.com/david/mainblog.nsf |

    PHEW - I am glad I am not the only geek that decided to dig in to the system databases. I was sad that they had SOME security. Catalog or Log would have been great to have access to.

  1. 52  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    Yeah, you could say that. Still they are using it and sending out links to the site in current emails. It apparently isn't just something that's been sitting around collecting dust if they are still directing people to the data. Yeah, it probably was an application from a merged company. But so what, they are still using it because it still works.

    Do you know of any current MS products that are supported on Win NT? The latest Notes/Domino release will run on it. Can't say the same for the latest Exchange or even the previous version of Exchange.

  1. 53  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com |

    Steve, it seems you've read few of the other comments in this thread. Particularly useful is Jack Dausman's blog entry which I manually trackbacked.

    This isn't really an issue of "who can find the most out-of-date code on Microsoft's website" or where it originated...but rather of how Microsoft represents themselves as 100% Microsoft, leading-edge, calls their own customers "dinosaurs" for not being on the latest version of Office, etc. You can blame it on the Great Plains acquisition, but they've had years to move this to a .NET app -- and simply haven't.

  1. 54  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    My point about NT was that you can still purchase Domino server software that will run on NT. You don't have to rip and replace the whole OS in order to upgrade to the latest releases with Domino software. This is not something you can say with MS software.

    Whether they want to support the OS or not is a moot point. You could run a 6.5.4 server or a 4.6.2 server on NT - if it works, don't fix it. I'm just stating the facts that it "can" still work in Domino. I'm not saying I condone running NT over 2000 or 2003.

    I think you're still missing Ed's main point that MS has an IBM-based webpage that they front to customers. Although MS will villify IBM any chance they get:

    { Link }

  1. 55  Tony Cocks http://www.tonycocks.com |

    Chris, a fair bit of villifacation comes this was too. :o)

  1. 56  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    That may be, but you don't see the head of IBM stepping up saying that "Microsoft isn't doing that much".

  1. 57  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net |

    @57 but Tony (to me anyway) the humour (and not vilification) is in MS running around telling IBM customers how easy and cost effective it is to migrate their old legacy Domino applications. If MS's real motive behind the "Domino customers can embrace MS technologies as well" seminars is to show integration, I suggest you upgrade this server, add some web services to it, integrate it's data with Office, etc... and update your seminar content to show customers how even MS is using Domino to run their own business. Yes Great Plains was an acquisition, but that is the perfect scenario for you to promote, as it is pretty common in the industry.

  1. 58  Tony C http://www.tonycocks.com |

    @58 No Chris he leaves that to Mr Mills, who if I remember is no shrinking violet in his opinions.

    @59 Alan. Although I don't expect anyone to believe me...it's days are numbered. Now the Linux desktops IBM where going to roll out...what ever happened to them? Oh and hows the Smartsuite deployment going? :o)

    Thats humour not villification.

  1. 59  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    @59 - The linux deployment has been documented. There were so many intranet applications developed for IE that they can't roll them out yet. Seems the standards-compliant browsers have problems with the applications...

    Gates has game. I can hear him now - "Hey, let's make a browser that defies standards so we can keep people in the palm of our hands!"

  1. 60  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net |

    @60 I guess I am not understanding the situation... I thought MS is publically telling customers about how great it is to use both Domino and MS products. Hence my suggestion was to upgrade the server and talk publically about MS's use of Domino in your seminars. That is what I was getting at, but it seems like you say it is going away.

  1. 61  Tony Cocks http://www.tonycocks.com |

    @60 Ummm, which is it Al? Is MS to be laughed it for having an old 4.6 Domino box running somewhere or to be applauded for talking about interop? You can have the cake chap, but eat it it as well?

    @59 Why not just enforce Firefox as the standard? There aren't that many apps at IBM that are written just for IE. In fact as an ex IBM employee I can think of one, and if IE is so bad why do it in the first place. Oh and if you can hear Bill G from where you are I'd be surprised. :o)

  1. 62  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com |

    @63 - I don't know why that was the case, but see this article:

    { Link }

    "users may experience problems running IBM's internal Web applications. Most of those applications are written for the Internet Explorer browser, which has not been ported to Linux. Internet Explorer is the only browser supported by IBM's internal support desk, according to another IBMer."

    Sounds like it's the same thing many companies are seeing. The non-compliant IE was the defacto browser and with better offerings gaining ground, many apps have to be rewritten.

    Just to make my point, IE doesn't have a problem with the following code in a Domino javascript Submit button:


    But when I was trying to make sure my database worked in Firefox, I had to change that to:


  1. 63  Axel Janssen  |

    i think the Great Plane guys are not upgrading from Notes 4.6, because they are waiting for a nifty upgrate-site like windowsupdate.com :-)

  1. 64  FredT  |

    #1 Ahem... admin4, setup.nsf, is not closed either... And I didn't check stat001...999... but guess ?

    #2 I know why they kept a 4.6 version: it's not affected by the /.nsf/../boot.ini attack...

    #3 Google search for "allinurl:"microsoft.com" nsf" links to 'only' mbs2.microsoft.com/gps - would have been fun...


    Takecare !