Ed Brill

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1. 1  Bilal Jaffery http://www.Bilal.ca | 6/23/2009 9:20:22 PM

   What a great post. Nice!

1. 2  tom oneil http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/23/2009 9:26:45 PM

   "Meanwhile, I'm hearing that my own sales team is closing deals with customers who had made decisions to migrate to Microsoft and have decided to rethink that."

   I can't help that the economy had something to do with customers changing their minds.

   I also find it humorous that "closing a deal" means keeping an existing customer. It would be cool if they tried to convert a customer in my area TO Lotus so the job market was a bit better around here.

1. 3  Kevin  | 6/23/2009 9:28:51 PM

   Woo....Ed is sizzlin HOT tonight!

1. 4  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/23/2009 9:33:18 PM

   @2 Tom, it's not either/or. I'm just pointing out that *among* the deals we're doing right now, some are with existing/onetime customers who have revisited their decision, for a variety of reasons. Roadmap, economics, or innovation are all good reasons. There are also new customers buying and converting, too.

1. 5  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/23/2009 9:38:07 PM

   "Since Notes 6, Microsoft has managed to eke out two releases of Office, Exchange, and SharePoint."

   And you are not yet to Notes 9, one might do some simple math and think this is nothing to indict MSFT for. So allow me a clarification.

   Since Notes 6, IBM has shipped 4 major updates: 6.5, 7, 8, 8.5. The .5 version designations are for clarity of terms of support. They do not represent marginal changes in the software. In fact, there is little doubt that there is MUCH more difference between 8 and 8.5 than there was between 6 and 7. More features, more versions, and more value, in less time.

   I'll knock IBM all day long for places where they screw up, but shipping software ain't one of them.

1. 6  Brad H.  | 6/23/2009 10:36:11 PM

   Since you mentioned Notes 8.5.2 and 9, I want slip in a request for improvement on the follow-up flagging in either version, preferably 8.5.2. This is one feature where Outlook 2003-2007 has a much better model and the feature I probably miss most in Notes.

   Notes is limited to three hard-coded flag priorities and only a "Quick Flag" option on the toolbar and right-click menus. Outlook allows multiple priority flags and makes it easy to flag an email with a priority from either the toolbar or the right-click menu. Notes seems to have the foundation to be able to do this as well without a major overhaul of the feature - and possibly even do it better - if you really try.

   Used properly, this feature in Outlook improves productivity and makes it easy to quickly prioritise email for later review and response. I'll post this on the design blog as well.

1. 7  Jason Fischer  | 6/23/2009 10:39:51 PM

   @Brad H., I agree with better functionality in follow-ups including the ability to turn then off completely. We have some compliance reasons for wanting to have follow-ups turned off and our current method of template modification and java programs is not ideal.

   Otherwise keep up the good work!!!

1. 8  Mike Brown http://www.browniesblog.com | 6/23/2009 10:56:05 PM

   @6,

   >> Notes is limited to three hard-coded flag priorities

   >> and only a "Quick Flag" option on the toolbar and

   >> right-click menus. Outlook allows multiple priority

   >> flags

   I presume that you mean Outlook allows more possible flag values (I mean over and above "Urgent", "Normal" and "Low") rather than multiple flags. If so, that's hardly a killer feature IMHO, but each to his own!

   If it's a big deal for you then it shouldn't be more than a few days' work for a Notes developer to implement such functionality in your mail design.

   And *that* is a killer difference between Notes and Outlook: if there's anything that you don't like about Outlook, then you're pretty much stuck with it unless you can persuade Microsoft to change it.

1. 9  Bruce Elgort http://elguji.com/products | 6/23/2009 11:48:47 PM

   @6,

   I see you added your idea to IdeaJam - { Link }

   Cool...

1. 10  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 6/24/2009 1:47:27 AM

   @2 - nice WordPress theme on your blog. I would venture to say that even with the economy in it's delicate state, businesses are going ahead with numerous IT projects - presumably those that have the greatest benefit or saving potential. So if the e-mail migration is pushed down the list, what does that say about it's value? So I'm not saying the economy isn't a factor, but it is making businesses prioritise and thus reveals where the priorities are.

   Re. closing a deal - if a customer has indicated they will move away from Notes, but 2 years later they renew their maintenance or reinstate lapsed maintenance, we'll count that as a deal. I know examples of both of these this year, and doesn't show much of a commitment to move away.

1. 11  Keith Brooks http://www.vanessabrooks.com | 6/24/2009 4:01:39 AM

   Splitting hairs again.

   Leave Ed and team alone, they can only say what they can in a way that they must.

   If you as a BP deal with licensing, we don't, you should be posting every time someone renews licenses or whatever it might be, then you have better references in some cases.

   I have seen a few companies this year already admit to stopped paying maintenance and I have been working on them to renew to get to R8.5 and expand their vision. Costs do matter and sometimes BPs are a cheaper alternative than maintenance and support.

   As to MS, well, if you never want to hire someone with vision, but rather sales backgrounds, you will keep going in circles.

1. 12  Pete Hampton http://hampsterscage.blogspot.com/ | 6/24/2009 5:14:41 AM

   Ed, great post. I have caught out a few "Softie" sales folk blatantly lying to customers about the future of Notes & Domino, usual claptrap about "this is the last release"...IBM are giving up on Notes"...blah blah blah. The best was from a Softie that stated ND7 was the end of the road, whilst sitting next to me as I had Notes 8 on my machine...needless to say there he had a bit of a credibility issue with the customer.

   Also interesting that this FUD is coming from a company that don't like to publish roadmaps for Exchange. They are currently advising customer's to halt rollout's for 2007, even though 2010 has yet to be released and given that most customers would want to wait until the first Service Pack they are now realistically looking at 2011 for a rollout it seems to point to a total lack of direction and vision from our chums in Redmond.

   Cheers

1. 13  TC  | 6/24/2009 6:13:06 AM

   >>Meanwhile, I'm hearing that my own sales team is closing deals with customers who had made decisions to migrate to Microsoft and have decided to rethink that.

   Ed - I'm a long term Notes user and believe it's a great RAD tool and has lots of selling points, AND was first with so many things - but I note you are not saying your sales team is winning business -ie, converting *FROM* exchange. Therefore, though natural entropy, Notes WILL disappear, however sad that is.

   Prove me wrong and make me happy, but at the end of the day, I can't believe it will happen.

1. 14  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 6/24/2009 7:31:16 AM

   @13 - { Link }

   and... { Link }

1. 15  Craig Schumann http://www.teamstudio.com | 6/24/2009 7:55:32 AM

   FUD or not, it works. There must be a reason why IBM's own customers are willing to believe what they hear. You don't hear anything about how effective this tactic is the other way around. I would bet not very. It's going to take a long time for the perception that "Notes is dead" to go away, regardless of how many releases there are. Notes is dead vs Exchange is late.... I'd go with late over dead.

1. 16  Mike  | 6/24/2009 8:11:58 AM

   Craig,

   I agree. It all comes back to the thing everyone has been banging on about for ages - when was the last time you saw a Notes ad on TV or in mainstream print? Nothing since the I.am R5 campaign

   I appreciate the argument that TV and papers are not the way to get to the "decision makers", but the decision makers listen to the people they work with, so if their people are saying "Notes? Is that still going?", it will feed the doubt/sway the final decision

   Mike

1. 17  Brad H.  | 6/24/2009 8:43:42 AM

   @8,

   Of course many things are possible if you are a very competent Notes developer, and if you are a large business that is running Domino/Notes then you will probably have someone who can make those changes. However, if IBM wants to get more traction with the SMB market, who usually won't have such a person on staff, then Notes needs to be able to match most of the Outlook functionality out of the box (at least those functions that are very useful and widely accepted as good interface design).

   If someone has found a good way to do something, let's not try to re-invent the wheel. M$ certainly have no qualms with using good ideas that others have pioneered - although their implementation is often found wanting - and neither should IBM. If there is functionality or even interface design in Outlook or any other relevant competitive product that is very good then use it, and make it the slightest bit better or more intuitive if that is possible. The prize never goes to the person who thinks of the idea, but the one who seizes on it and makes the most of it.

1. 18  Brad H.  | 6/24/2009 8:44:44 AM

   @9,

   Thanks. I like IdeaJam, very nice.

1. 19  Karl-Henry Martinsson http://www.bleedyellow.com/blogs/texasswede | 6/24/2009 9:00:00 AM

   @17: You don't even have to be a "very competent Notes developer" to make those simple changes you talked about. But if you don't have one on your staff, there are many out there that you can hire for a little job like that.

   That is one of the nice things about Notes, it is easy to change the functionality (for example) in the mail application.

   And it is easy for even non-developers to create simple databases/applications. At one of my previous jobs, one guy in accountinmg played around in Notes and built a purchase order system that fit the company perfectly. He had no programming background. That is the power of Notes, but can also be a problem, since some users think that those custom applications (especially if the UI lack the polish people are used to today) are ugly or not working perfectly, so they blame Notes/IBM.

1. 20  Kevin Mort http://www.theglobalmind.com | 6/24/2009 9:08:19 AM

   @16 - Then again, when was the last time you saw an Exchange ad? I'd venture a while. At least on TV. But that's a whole other discussion.

   There is no question that increased customer awareness is a major factor here. As much as C-level folks are targeted, it can come from "lower" in the organization as well.

   Some people won't be happy with changing anything. Regardless of what client they're on today. The notion that every Notes user today will be thrilled with Outlook and need no training at all to use it is pure fallacy. Yet it's put out there. And the same goes the other way around.

   @OP,As much as some folks like to call out IBM on their apparent missteps, it is funny how a few of those same "supporters" give MSft a pass at every opportunity. There's really no excuse for it, not even "business is business."

   So good post. This type of thing needs to be communicated with "vigor and excitement" as a friend of mine used to say.

1. 21  tom http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/24/2009 9:11:37 AM

   @16) Mike, I agree.

   But I don't think IBM should sell Lotus Notes as an email solution. "Buy us... we're not Microsoft Exchange."

   Lotus has too many products and strategies right now that muddle what made them so successful.

   During the R5 days... the greatest thing about Lotus Notes was that you could take a users spreadsheet or Microsoft Access database and turn it into a collaborative application in about a day. Attach a file? We can do it. Protect it from other users... use an ACL.

   Companies (in the Midwest) like Whitman-Hart, IBM, Relavis, etc... were cleaning up processes and creating applications that worked great for companies large and small.

   Then, applications like Quickplace and Domino.doc started to appear and there was a hard sell to get those into companies. I think it was then that IBM/Lotus decided that they didn't get enough revenue from home-brew applications and tried a different course.

   That was when I started seeing companies move away from Lotus Notes. I think Microsoft Exchange and GroupWare came along and said we can do email for less and IBM/Lotus stopped selling the "customized application" part of Lotus Notes.

   I always go back to Balmer's video of "Developers, Developers, Developers!" and I am reminded of the days we (developers, consultants, partners) added so much value to an "email environment."

   IBM/Lotus gave up selling its application environment. I don't want to say it gave up supporting the developers but there is nothing like MSDN.

   From my development point of view... that is when Lotus died. Of all of the people I have worked with over the past ten years (and I've jumped around too many times) only 5% are still developing in Lotus Notes (and they're all at my current company).

   I don't necessarily want to see Ed doing the monkey dance and screaming "Developers!" but I wonder if they'll ever go back to selling the RAD environment that has always existed.

1. 22  tom http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/24/2009 9:22:53 AM

   Has the PSC logo always had the "flicker?"

   I was typing my (overly verbose) comment and it was starting to freak me out.

1. 23  Scott Johnsen http://www.teamstudio.com | 6/24/2009 9:53:25 AM

   A win is a win is a win, and I'll take 'em all. New customers, retained customers, and customers who said they were leaving years ago still renewing maintenance. All good.

   I do worry that MS FUD goes out to "the world" while IBM's rebuttal goes out to the Notes community. It seems that a lot of IBM's efforts are in the area of preaching to the choir. That's okay as long as we members of the Notes community have an opportunity to rebut the MS FUD, but how many times has it happened that we don't hear about it until it's too late?

   (I know this post is also preaching to the choir. Who among us hasn't hoped for more IBM/Notes marketing!)

   Scott

1. 24  Dan King  | 6/24/2009 9:53:39 AM

   @20, @16 IMO the thing is Exchange/Outlook is seen as Microsoft, which isn't going away anytime soon.

   Lotus (and Notes) is a part of IBM which could be ditched at any point, or changed to IBM's whim (see Workplace).

   This is my impression of what people think, not what I think myself...

   Any sort of Lotus brand marketing would be good, but when Ed et al inform us of some marketing (talking about TV mainly) it's IBM branded, not Lotus, so there's no association with a strong brand in the general consciousness when it comes to Notes itself

1. 25  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 10:01:19 AM

   It amazes me when people who have worked with Notes for any period of time assert things like "could be ditched at any point". Notes has been out for 20 years, has had steady releases (to Nate's point @5) for the last seven years, and has what could arguably be one of the most consistent track records of any desktop software product. Yet somehow there is this fear lurking that IBM is going to chuck it or sell it or whatever. That is pure FUD, and uninformed at that. Sorry, Dan, not personal, but you can't make those assertions without any evidence to back up.

   Yes, the advertising is IBM branded. That's 90% of IBM's focus in advertising. The marketing, however, is not. A few weeks ago (to the point of 23 as well), we issued yet another "momentum" press release (two, actually)

   { Link }

   That was hardly preaching to the choir..in fact, the choir complained "wait, those are customers I already know". Yeah, that's the point. The yellowverse might know, but the mainstream market isn't as aware. So, we did some press awareness --it's not advertising, but it's in some ways stronger because of the specifics of the announcements.

1. 26  Dan King  | 6/24/2009 10:18:13 AM

   @Ed That wasn't what I was saying if you read carefully, This is what I believe the argument/FUD is, and what <some> people believe, however uninformed that sounds to you and me.

   If you think about the fact that Msft can go into a business and tell them that Notes is dead and they believe it and migrate, then what else is there to assume?

   This is, after all, the whole point of your post - to try and dissuade people that it's true - although of course you are preaching to the choir here

   People do like brands, and I don't think you can argue that the Lotus brand is as well defined/popular as the Msft brand, so those people that buy technology by brand (and again, they must exist if they're moving from Domino to Exchange), favour Msft

   This is all rather simplistic of course, but then I'm not a marketing guy...

1. 27  Hal Ninth  | 6/24/2009 10:25:59 AM

   Deleted

1. 28  tom http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/24/2009 10:32:01 AM

   @Hal... nice question.

1. 29  Craig Boudreaux  | 6/24/2009 11:04:12 AM

   Just wanted to point out one thing I didn't see mentioned. Ed said, "twice today, I've been asked to "prove" that 8.x is not the last release of Notes/Domino. "

   Those customers didn't already "feel" that to be true. IBM doesn't "come out swinging" or provide "air cover" on this. I see great arguments here, but not beyond the yellowverse.

   And also, Customer Service guidelines say that if one speaks up, there were 10 that didn't bother.

   We're finally seeing IBM ads, but I'd argue nothing in those ads say anything useful about the products, why you'd use them, or why the value is better than the competition.

   In order to stop having to prove this, the information has be to out there already.

1. 30  Paul Robichaux http://www.robichaux.net/blog | 6/24/2009 11:07:56 AM

   @13 the way I hear it, IBM has had some success at playing defense (particularly in APAC), but at the cost of offering extremely discounted licenses. That's not the same as adding net-new seats. I wonder what Gartner's 2008/2009 data will look like?

1. 31  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 11:23:58 AM

   @30 yes it is funny how Microsoft's spin has gone from being that when we were ahead in the market share by revenue, it was that we were charging too much money for Notes. Now that we're growing but "behind" in market share by revenue, it must be that we're extremely discounting. I can't comment on our discounting trend lines but we have been growing the revenue on Notes/Domino over the last four years (publicly reported in IBM financials) so clearly something about that spin doesn't add up.

1. 32  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 11:36:33 AM

   I am a little frustrated that this turned into a "lotus marketing sucks" thread. We don't run commercials for DB2 or WebSphere either...do you hear the same FUD about those product lines going away? Quite the opposite - the thought is that it is an IBM product / family, and IBM is committed to customers and deployed products for the long haul.

1. 33  Tony S Lee  | 6/24/2009 11:47:46 AM

   @27 If I was a CTO definitely would scout the landscape before betting my money on the Microsoft horse. Definitely not convinced that Microsoft will be the last man standing.

   @30 I'm reminded of governments using Linux and Openoffice in order to get deep discounts on XP and Office... So what?

1. 34  Hal Ninth  | 6/24/2009 11:56:59 AM

   Deleted

1. 35  tom http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/24/2009 12:00:31 PM

   @32 I'm sorry, Ed. You're the one who brought up FUD. We're saying we still don't feel the love. Your sales team might be patting themselves on the backs for not losing clients but I'm the one with JohnsonDiversey in my backyard (and yours too by the way). Why couldn't we get that win?

   Why should I not have FUD as a Notes Developer considering the lack of Lotus Notes shops in my area?

1. 36  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 12:06:16 PM

   @34 you are probably reading sections that represent a quarter vs. annual (first bullet, annual, third bullet, Q4). And then yes, as you say, the financial reports detail revenue for the Lotus brand overall, not just Notes/Domino. I'm not allowed by IBM policy to break out revenue for a specific product, but in our July 2008 press release and our January 2009 press release, we specifically mentioned that Notes/Domino has grown consecutively since 2004. I've also said elsewhere that the number of active seats on maintenance has increased over that time period, which would again argue against this idea that IBM is losing customers.

   @35 someday when I write my book I'll be able to comment on why we would lose a committed customer like that.

1. 37  Brett H  | 6/24/2009 12:09:52 PM

   @32 c'mon Ed, it seems that a lot of threads here end up being hijacked by the "Lotus marketing sucks" folks (me included, I'll admit) so I can understand your frustration, but... perhaps it's time somebody listened? Remember that same frustration is being wrought out by us specifically because of the details mentioned in your original post. We just want to know what IBM/Lotus is doing about it! And press releases do not count as marketing.

   BTW DB2 and Websphere are not under daily attack in the marketplace, back-offices, boardrooms and watercoolers... Lotus Notes is!

1. 38  Michael de Haas  | 6/24/2009 1:09:01 PM

   @Ed, being defensive, even if it's your professional position is not helping us on the other side. You asked for specific example, I have noted it before, a friend of mine who works in business admin in IBM Europe, not related to the IT side of the busines at all, responded to me a few months back when I queried about why his virtual team was using a Sharepoint solution and not notes based, his need was almost template based, his response "aren't they giving that away free". Clearly he was confusing Symphony, but I have to wonder why the ignorance - surely he talks to others and is not the only holding this position? In the real world, especially here in France, the Lotus business is loosing ground, but at the recent LCTY in Paris (site the turnout all you want), the presenters could not stop annoyingly patting themselves on the back while the rest of us cursing the lost clients.

1. 39  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/24/2009 1:09:52 PM

   @32 - Whoa whoa whoa. You bring up a competitive positioning topic, and think it's NOT going to turn into a conversation about marketing? What more relevant aspect of competitive positioning is there for Lotus?

   Who are you and what did you do with the real Ed Brill?

1. 40  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 1:31:15 PM

   @38 was that the LCTY with 600 people in attendance?

1. 41  Kevin Mort http://www.theglobalmind.com | 6/24/2009 2:26:47 PM

   Isn't much of this just the idea that whatever Msft says is taken as Gospel and whatever IBM Lotus says must be a fabrication? That's certainly how some would like customers to see it.

   Oooh, I know! Perhaps MSFT would like to PROVE to me that Exchange 2010 isn't the last release? Perhaps I should go around spreading that FUD. Afterall, I have a release roadmap from Lotus, where's one for Exchange?

1. 42  Hal Ninth  | 6/24/2009 3:14:16 PM

   Deleted

1. 43  Tripp Black http://www.mindwatering.com | 6/24/2009 3:34:31 PM

   As for the Notes commercials, I'd like to see them. Not something too CEO -- some of the YouTube videos are good -- they are specific and do hit a cord. (BTW. I just the the MS bing search engine commercial last night. Cannot say I've seen a Lotus one either since "super human" R5.)

   I think the "more MS BPs than Notes BPs" issue is more subtle. There are more MS BPs because they are needed for all the small biz customers. They are also needed because the software lacks:

   - Anyone done much in Exch2007 lately? To do anything you use a console --> a dos prompt. It's a good thing there is fairly good docs on technet. Otherwise, admin tweaks would be impossible. For 2003 admins to be 2007 admins, they have to have an online-book of commands. I do a lot of console commands, but most have GUI equiv. in the Admin client.

   - Their integration in SBS 2008 leaves much to be desired. When you make minor configuration changes, and follow the online Exchange 2007 documentation or IIS, you will hose your install because MS has really hacked all the products for them to "collaborate" together. The result is a call to MS (which isn't free after the first one in their SA version of Passport) to fix it, or a call to MS SBS partner who makes a living off of fixing the installs (which isn't free either). Basically, the result is a customer too scared to touch it beyond adding a new user along with hiring the consultant for all configuratin changes or upgrades.

   - Lotus Foundation really has a chance with just a few commercials or some way to get the SBS - how about retail boxes? It still works for MS, Apple, and it's how Redhat got started. (My only beef with Foundatons was that Domino was not on port 80. The Apache server was. However, it's great backup and restore, and management via web browser like a "regular" appliance were my favorite features of the bundle.)

   I'm a Lotus certified instructor, an Administrator, and a Developer. One awesome thing about Notes and Domino as an admin and developer is that I don't need training every release. Most of our class students are not current admins either. They are new ones that used to "such-and-such" and now got thrown into this Notes thing. The "old" admins just call us when they are doing something complicated (SSL integration with Domino Directory via OpenLDAP for example) or want a second pair of eyes.

   Our customers are upgrading to Domino 7 and 8, but they don't hire us to do it, they just download the software and upgrade in place - we find out when we next talk with them on some new project.

   It's just as true for the Notes developer. Get moved out of the Notes development department in R5 and you can pick it back up in R7 or even R8. Don't know how to do a composite application or want to use those really cool new xpages -- see a Lotus wiki and the samples. No have-to-go-to-class or hire a consultant.

   As for the MS marketing engine, when I was on the MS-side, I was always proud of their "agressive" stance. I didn't know better. It took a new web development job and an IT Director, named Russ, "shoving" Notes on me and a R5 release before I saw the light.

   I'm also a VCP (VMware), there's enough of a difference in ESX 3.5 and vSphere, that you'll say you're "not in Kanses anymore". I think a lot of VMware Infrastructure 3 admins will be going to class.

   For all those of us who would like proof for the MS FUD...

   As many of us that can publish real-world costs for upgrades, migrations, and installs that do both MS and Lotus, I think these case studies should speak volumes.

   I'd like to see these threads with links to actual data. When were in that next MS "notes is dead" crap, we can link to real case studies with real installs, upgrades, and migrations that succeeded. Read back through, Ed has posted a fair number just for the new DAOS feature.

1. 44  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/24/2009 4:00:15 PM

   You can't compare Bing commercials to the perceived need for commercials on Notes -- bing is a tool anyone can use by going to any browser and typing in a URL. It's targeted at everyone. We're *not* in the same place.

1. 45  Kevin Mort http://www.theglobalmind.com | 6/24/2009 6:15:38 PM

   @27 I would look back and say I had success because I kept my eyes open for opportunities, and the customer's interests in mind. I wouldn't necessarily define it by any of those products, and we could add quite a few more to that list as well.

   @43 I'd also say a lot if not most IBM BPs who are in the Lotus space are also MS BPs...mainly because as you said, to be in the SMB space you're going to need some access. Oh and because BizSpark gets you in pretty darn easy to get software!

   @44 - Bing is one of the very few Microsoft commercials to discuss a product.

1. 46  Brian O’Curran http://www.doingmorewithless.biz/dmwl/blog.nsf | 6/24/2009 10:53:46 PM

   Quote of the week:

   "One of these days, I'm going to get someone on record as saying "our migration to Exchange cost way more than we thought, and we are still running Notes years later". You know who you are."

   let me know when you start that chapter Ed, there's lots of customers that pound their chest and proclaim their going to MS. In the end, very very few make it. I been doing this long enough to just smile knowing the the low odds of anyone actually throwing money away to move. Just once, I'd love to say "I told ya so!" Just one time.

1. 47  tonyo  | 6/24/2009 11:10:10 PM

   When I see this kind of rhetoric I'm always reminded of this { Link }

1. 48  David Bell  | 6/24/2009 11:16:18 PM

   @21 - "I don't want to say it gave up supporting the developers but there is nothing like MSDN. "

   Do you not know about IBM developerWorks ?

1. 49  Richard Hogan  | 6/25/2009 5:18:53 AM

   @32 - "We don't run commercials for DB2 or WebSphere either..."

   Ed, I think IBM brand awareness probably helps when someone hears about 'IBM DB2' or 'IBM Websphere' However, how many people connect 'Lotus Notes' with IBM? And how much of the benefit of IBM brand falls to Lotus Notes?

   In the case of Microsoft the brand awareness obviously helps 'Microsoft Server 200x', 'Microsoft Sharepoint', 'MS Exchange', etc.

   After IBM bringing Notes to the extremely productive platform that is R8.5.1, it's disappointing to see that the 'Notes is dead' message is still plausible to anyone, and that has to be down to the message people are (not) getting!

   If IBM won't invest in "Lotus" brand awareness how about renaming Lotus Notes & Domino to 'IBM Notes' and 'IBM Notes Server', etc?

1. 50  Mike Brown http://www.browniesblog.com | 6/25/2009 5:23:56 AM

   @49 Richard,

   What version are you on, mate?

   I'm running 8.5. Across the top title bar it says "IBM Lotus Notes". The Help menu has an entry that says "About IBM Lotus Notes". When I click on that entry, the dialog says "About IBM Lotus Notes" followed by "IBM Lotus Notes 8.5".

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 51  steven kennett  | 6/25/2009 6:25:05 AM

   What I still don't understand is why Exchange and Domino are still compared to each other the way they are. Exchange/Outlook is an EMAIL platform and is sold as much. Domino/Lotus Notes is a Colloboration platform and is sold as much, it is not sold as an EMAIL platform.

   Many companies these days are looking at EMAIL when they choose their product, why because there are other options now with Sharepoint/Websphere/whatever else.

   So, when they look at the products they see Exchange/Outlook as being the primary EMAIL product on the market.

   I would still be interested to know why Oxford University chose Exchange over Domino recently to roll out to 40,000 staff/students, this is one of the most famous and richest in the world. I would have bent over backwards to win this !!

   How many of these students are now going to leave, go into high level jobs and will take the experience of using Outlook with them !

   I think you should stop comparing the two UNTIL you market and sell Lotus Notes as an EMAIL solution , otherwise it is all FUD !!

1. 52  mike  | 6/25/2009 6:54:21 AM

   The bottom line is, the FUD works.

   I used to be the lead singer in the choir that is Lotus, but alas, I have been forced to hang up my voice as I see my major organisation confirming a move to one vendor platform.

   Microsoft.

   *sigh*

1. 53  richard  | 6/25/2009 6:54:52 AM

   Can I just make a quick comment on the whole "notes is dead" issue. I've seen this topic repeated so many times over the years that really it is time for IBM to do something. One advertisement campaign(television - not youtube) is needed, just one to stop this. Seriously just do something...

   Sometimes I look at notes and I'm reminded of novell netware. A vastly superior product(and still is)completely destroyed by microsoft strategy and marketing. Learn something from novells mistakes.

1. 54  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/25/2009 7:32:10 AM

   @51 Oxford likely chose what they chose because both Microsoft and Google have free offerings to universities for e-mail. They cover their costs through the embedded advertising and links to their consumer tools (e.g. search). IBM doesn't have this business model and thus doesn't offer a comparable free@EDU service. I guarantee that most of those students aren't using Outlook, they're using web access.

   @47 is that a denial or a confirmation?

1. 55  tom http://www.codepress.net/b | 6/25/2009 7:41:42 AM

   @48 I have been to developerworks. Pretend you're just out of college and assigned to develop in the environment called "Lotus Notes." Tell me how useful developerworks really is for us.

   Except for a few blog links... developerworks is horrid for Lotus Notes/Domino developers.

1. 56  steven kennett  | 6/25/2009 7:47:57 AM

   @54, Fair enough. On the web access point, I use the full and web access versions of Outlook 2007, they layout is not too disimilar just obviously does not have all the functionality, so the user will still say they use outlook whether it be through the full client or on the web.

   You haven't addressed my other point about comparing 2 products that are marketed differently and sold as different types of product, but yet you expect people to choose Notes when many only want an email product because they have choice of others for colloboration now.

1. 57  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/25/2009 8:41:04 AM

   @56 I didn't because e-mail is a commodity and there are a hundred ways of buying it. As in any commodity market, players look for differentiation. For Notes, we talk about collaborative applications and the like because it's the differentiation. In Notes 8 we shifted that in the direction of talking about "The Desktop of the Future" because the end-user would get more value out of understanding that desktop.

1. 58  Richard Hogan  | 6/25/2009 9:13:15 AM

   @50 - Mike, the point I was trying to make was that nobody talks about "IBM Lotus Notes" they simply say "Lotus Notes", and the normal business user when they hear about "Lotus Notes" is not going to relate it strongly to IBM. It was a bit of a throwaway suggestion to rename it to "IBM Notes" but at least it might communicate two things

   1) that it is 'new' (or 'newer & improved' to people who knew Lotus Notes)

   2) that it is 'IBM', and that IBM were clearly endorsing it.

   If IBM had simply renamed Notes to IBM Workplace back then it might sent the message that although Notes was dead we now had this new & improved Workplace product, backed by IBM that still ran all Notes apps back to R3, etc.

   Anyway - just a bit of fantasy!!

1. 59  steven kennett  | 6/25/2009 9:38:35 AM

   @57 But you are comparing it against Exchange/Outlook, which is just Email. This is not a like for like comparison is it because Notes is not "just" email.

   It seems MS are winning the email market because that is what many companies want "just email" and it doesn't really matter how they do it the fact is they are winning!

1. 60  Brett H  | 6/25/2009 9:48:19 AM

   @57 "In Notes 8 we shifted that in the direction of talking about "The Desktop of the Future" because the end-user would get more value out of understanding that desktop"

   Sorry Ed but talking about the "Desktop of the future" is completely meaningless and has very little impact in the real world outside the bubble. Until the "Desktop of the Future" is actually shown to people it's all just talk talk talk. This has been said here more times than I can remember. Show the product! So what if that other company doesn't! THEY don't need to THEY already have mindshare. To win mindshare back Lotus needs to do real advertising of their products, and not fake "viral" videos that only the bubble sees (BTW calling a youtube video "viral" doesn't make it so).

   Telling your adversaries that you have a secret weapon won't scare them unless you show them what it can do. Telling the public you have a secret weapon won't make them feel safer unless you prove to them what it can do. Talk is cheap, people need proof, not babble, finger pointing and chest thumping.

   The customer wins that are brought up here are great and good to hear, but press releases and a blog entry directed only at the bubble are not the way to tell people.

   Please, for the love of all things yellow... show the product!

1. 61  Hal Ninth  | 6/25/2009 9:48:47 AM

   Deleted

1. 62  steven kennett  | 6/25/2009 10:07:45 AM

   @61 - Yes many companies now are using Sharepoint/Websphere/Quickr So when they are looking for an email product exchange/outlook is the one that is being sole as matching those needs.

   I have seen this many times recently with a number of companies, seriously someone needs to take off those rose tinted glasses and look around at ground level !

1. 63  David Hablewitz - Notes guy in Seattle  | 6/25/2009 7:59:03 PM

   So I'm entry 63. Not a popular topic. Ed, you know where I was and you know what happened there and yes, they budgeted $100,000 but spent over $1M to migrate and then 1 month after the migration, cut 12% of their staff to save money. You also saw the lies published by MS sales people and provided to execs there. "If you tell a lie often enough it becomes truth." Which reminds me, for those thinking a decision to migrate to another product is ever, EVER based on technical merits or solid objective, impartial data, you need to read the book "Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion" { Link }

   This is a must-read if you are in marketing or sales.

   BTW, whatever happened to the saying "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"? (If you're under 30 you won't know what I'm talking about.)

1. 64  Sjef Bosman  | 6/26/2009 2:40:03 AM

   So they all say that Lotus Notes is dead? These outsiders see a huge "thing" in a hospital, it's still moving, lots of doctors applying improvements that the outsiders don't understand, and a weeping family all crying "it's not fair". Specialists all over the world are shaking their heads...

   Why not take advantage of the "Notes is dead" message that apparently everybody knows? I move to declare Notes dead, as of release 9 or 10, and to come with a product that is 110% Notes but with a new name, or a new brand, and maybe a new user interface. Of course, under the hood, it'll be Notes inside and out, but who cares?

   I can see the marketing campaign already... :-)

1. 65  Hal Ninth  | 6/26/2009 4:17:04 AM

   Deleted

1. 66  Sjef Bosman  | 6/26/2009 7:54:52 AM

   Workplace? That only looked al little like Notes... I think nobody even remembers that product.

   Oh, yes, by all means, Symphony Groupware or so. Suits me fine!

1. 67  tonyo  | 6/26/2009 12:53:11 PM

   @64 and 65 Workplace workplace workplace.. the first Lotus product designed soley by IBM senior executives that not only provided less capabilities than Notes 6.5 but was (as we called it at Lotus ) a "services opportunity" meaning it couldn't be installed by mere mortals.

1. 68  Don Strawsburg  | 6/26/2009 3:15:44 PM

   I just don't understand why IBM can't create a good commercial for Notes/Domino. In this economy, everyone is looking to do more with less. IBM commercials just seem to run off the track. I'd make the commercial more Apple like, just make it simple and straight forward.

   Two business men in the coffee shop one suit, one business casual. One suit walks past the other business casual with a Apple MacBook Pro, have Notes 8.5 e-mail client open, have a application with a graph open, some widgets. Have the passing guy say to the laptop guy, "Excuse me, What is that you are using?" laptop guy, "Oh, it's my e-mail, calendar, and a few business applications, We use the new IBM Lotus Notes, you must be a Outlook user, Yeah, Outlook can't do this." Then flash with dramatic music to a yellow screen, that says, "IBM Lotus Notes, your company may not use it yet, but your competitor does....." or many variations of the same message.

   Now's the time, everyone is looking for that universal hammer/screwdriver/wrench tool. That's Notes/Domino!

1. 69  richard  | 6/27/2009 8:49:10 AM

   Totally agree Don. What about Lotus notes and the paperless office. Jump on the environmentally friendly bandwagon....everyone else is doing it. You want to make money? Then you need to spend some money - I want to see some proper advertising from IBM in the very near future.

1. 70  Rene K  | 6/30/2009 2:38:06 AM

   Ed, I am one of the thousends silent follower of your blog.

   I fully understand that, with your job and you passion you can never be really objective. Thats fine for me.

   But why you talking about bad bad Microsoft FUD and spread some FUD in the same message?

   "Another good example is the recent bankruptcy filing..." bla bla bla. Sorry you implay Eddie Bauer go down do the Exchange Migration that is (indeed very professional) FUD. Fear, uncertainty and doubt.

1. 71  Deleted  | 6/30/2009 11:07:09 AM

   Anonymous comment deleted.

1. 72  Deleted  | 6/30/2009 1:13:36 PM

   Anonymous comment deleted. Again. As per the privacy/terms document on this blog, you must use your real name and e-mail address when commenting. Also based on your IP address, I know that my boss Kevin Cavanaugh has been part of recent discussions with your organization, so you've got access to the senior-most executive around Notes/Domino.