Ah, there´s that "red bull"

January 17 2006

Wow, what a surprise -- Microsoft has issued a press release today about their plans for "plucking" Lotus Notes/Domino customers.  As anticipated earlier this morning, it discusses updated migration tools from Notes to Microsoft, and some specific wins on Microsoft's part.

As to the tools, like I said earlier, Paul Mooney has already done a great job of making mincemeat of them.  I'd encourage any customer who is approached by Microsoft or their partners to run the application analyzer, FUD doses and all, since it appears that it's pretty realistic about how difficult (i.e. expensive) it is to migrate Lotus Notes applications.
Update 1: Bill Buchan comments on the announcement.
Update 2: In the News.com story about today's announcement, Gartner's Matt Cain says,

Cain noted that Microsoft is not offering software to help businesses deal with the custom applications that many of them have created using Lotus.

"What's still missing is a tool or service that can migrate the Domino application logic," Cain said. "Domino still is an awesome rapid application development tool. There frankly is nothing (like it) on the market."
As to the customer wins, while I can't specifically comment on any of these by name, I know of a few of them.  Interestingly, there are a half dozen mentioned that I've never seen as Notes customers -- not sure what criteria was used to establish including them in this release.  Another few are still running (and managing, and paying for) Domino applications -- all they converted was their e-mail environment.  Others still haven't converted a thing yet -- just have made a decision to do so.  And yet others are small companies or divisions where they might have used Notes years ago, but haven't kept up.  There are two that hurt -- poltical decisions that I and the Lotus team tried to reverse -- but for the most part, this list of customers isn't exactly a "sky is falling" moment.

While I am obviously not ignorant of the market dynamics, whereby Microsoft and its bounty-seeking partners are constantly trying to convert Notes shops, the reality is that it's just not happening at the rate and pace that Microsoft wants to believe.  Where it is happening, it's because decisions are being made on politics and emotion.  And when the cost analysis is done in the rear-view mirror, it never looks like a good bet.

Ed Brill Las Vegas, NV USA Category:  Microsoft  Add/View Comments [37]

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  1. 1  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 1/17/2006 9:59:26 AM

    With excitement I clicked to the announcement and through to download the tools. Instead of telling you what happened, I thought I'd show you. So here's the story in pictures. Remember, this is the final released version of the tools being run at a live production site of a major blue-chip corporation. I am a Lotus customer, not a supplier.

    { Link }

  1. 2  Irv Schor  | 1/17/2006 10:03:53 AM

    Ed, Here's the similar story on yahoo.

    { Link }

  1. 3  Tim Leach  | 1/17/2006 10:08:37 AM

    There's a paragraph in the news.com article that speaks volumes about Microsoft..

    "Graceffo acknowledged that the data migration tool does not address the full range of applications that Domino users have created. She pitched it as an opportunity for Lotus customers to rethink the business processes that they have built around these custom programs."

    I think if this lady did some investigation, she would find that most of these organisations' "custom applications" are built to meet the needs of the business processes and not vice-versa. Perhaps this is the way things work in the Microsoft app dev world ?

  1. 4  james governor www.redmonk.com/jgovernor | 1/17/2006 10:22:54 AM

    did you say plucking.

  1. 5  Colman Carpenter http://carpe.homends.org | 1/17/2006 10:29:22 AM

    Given Ben's experience with the tool, it makes me laugh when people say that Notes sucks and Microsoft is the paragon of user-friendliness ! Can't say I'm hugely surprised though.

  1. 6  Danny Lawrence  | 1/17/2006 10:45:44 AM

    "Interestingly, there are a half dozen mentioned that I've never seen as Notes customers"

    Could it be that these were existing Exchange shops that were thinking of converting to Domino and MSFT "Won" them, by "not losing" them? If so, I wonder if they were using the possibility of Notes to get more concessions from MSFT (I've always said the best way to get exchange servers licenses for free is to tell MSFT you are thinking about isntalling Notes).

    Alternatively, could they be Groupwise or "other" product users that MSFT won?

  1. 7  Randall Shimizu  | 1/17/2006 11:18:43 AM

    Politics and emotion: unfortunate but in many cases true

    Microsoft understands this so they poor a lot of resources to marketing as well as good dose of FUD. This is all the more reason why it is critical that Lotus lead with marketing..

  1. 8  Peter de Haas http://www.peterdehaas.com | 1/17/2006 11:37:09 AM

    Ed,

    Just to add a little context to all of this. The new/updated tooling is part of a bigger picture :

    { Link }

    I won't spoil the fun and excitement over here but will do an extensive post on my blog once I have read through all the press coverage of today :-)

  1. 9  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 1/17/2006 12:04:58 PM

    And I found this part of the article on Beta News ( { Link } )particulary humorous/ironic:

    "Microsoft says it recognizes a need for the ability to customize and build workflow-enabled applications for SharePoint, and it plans to address this in the coming months."

    I will now bite my tongue...

  1. 10  Turtle http://www.weightlessdog.com/msxsux.html | 1/17/2006 12:24:20 PM

    I read this as filtered through Reuters, and as usual, the first thing that came to mind is, "Microsoft still thinks people don't use anything but mail." It's been true for nearly ten years now, and the truth still remains: Domino is a collaborative application development environment, and one application that happens to be email. Exchange is mail with a crappy API.

  1. 11  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 1/17/2006 1:21:08 PM

    @8 - Peter! Good to have you back!

    Right. We have two tools - one is the "application analyser" which basically rips through the design of your lotus databases, sucks air between its teeth, scratches its ass and says "oh, expensive".

    Another is a partner written set of tools which allows you to migrate data between standard notes templates and some sharepoint applications.

    Wow.

    For 12 months, MS have been saying "its ripe for plucking" and this is *it* ?

    I've seen a few sites that have migrated to MS Exchange. There's the initial frenzy of enthusiasm, the hard slog as they realise that they'll have to use SMS (or some other software distribution mechanism), they usually dont bother migrating the mail - and then they leave the Notes application server in place to serve the notes apps. For years.

    A very high profile banking merger for instance - both companies "didnt use domino" - but post-merger, had to bolt their "hidden" notes application servers together to service up to 100,000 users. Still there to this day - years after the event.

    So if this is an MS migration - and this is the extent of the automatic tooling, I think its safe to say that there nothing but pain and a complete re-write of all applications ahead for anyone foolish enough to think they can do it.

    I spent 9 months writing code to automatically spot code weaknesses in migration from one notes platform to another. I'm intimately aware of the strength and depth of Lotus Notes applications out there.

    Can they be automatically migrated ? I think not.

    Ironically, there is a company that *will* automatically migrate your vb.net applications to J2EE (and websphere, etc).

    { Link }

    Oh - Peter - I sincerely do hope that MS have actually got something that they can use in customer sites.

    So far - they dont. And every time some MS person claims they do - we'll be there to tell the truth..

    ---* Bill

  1. 12  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 1/17/2006 1:23:39 PM

    Oh -and one quote on the MS codename for this (I'm sorry I cant remember who first said it):

    Red Herring, Bull Sh*t

    Seems to sum it up, eh ?

    ---* Bill

  1. 13  lance spellman www.workflowstudios.com/exchange | 1/17/2006 1:56:36 PM

    One more time, take your exchange server and shove it!

    we'll be announcing a very nice customer win the other direction in the next couple of weeks.

  1. 14  Dan Sickles  | 1/17/2006 2:40:01 PM

    "Microsoft says it recognizes a need for the ability to customize and build workflow-enabled applications for SharePoint, and it plans to address this in the coming months."

    A need Lotus recognized and addressed...15+ years ago. The future is here...it's just not evenly grokked.

  1. 15  Peter de Haas http://www.peterdehaas.com | 1/17/2006 2:56:22 PM

    @14

    Bill, as I commented I will do a post on this asap and will address your "concerns"; as always ;-)

  1. 16  Chris Reckling http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=416 | 1/17/2006 3:15:37 PM

    I wonder if this "bull" is what they were going to show at the booth at Lotusphere?

    Chris

  1. 17  Al  | 1/17/2006 3:32:10 PM

    My firm has carried out 5 Domino to Microsoft migrations (each around the 3-5,000 seat mark) in the past 12 months and pretty much every one has been for two reasons. 1.Getting to an integrated Microsoft infrastructure (AD, Exchange and XP) and 2. Because they want Outlook. (not just your boss loves outlook, the users do too!)

    Of the 2 that involved app migrations, I've got to say that the Casahl tool is excellent for migrating most apps to Sharepoint. That said though, there is a clear cut-off above this level of organisation where apps begin to be too numerous or complex to justify a migration. Hence the other 5 workshops I've run where I've had to recommend they stay where they are.

    The real biggie for us is Groupwise to Exchange migrations...

  1. 18  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 1/17/2006 3:38:39 PM

    1) Great publicity for Notes! I think that's the first time I've seen a Lotus Notes headline on Reuters Technology or Yahoo News. Lateral-thinking execs shouuld automatically include it as a messaging systems contender if Microsoft thinks it's such a big deal.

    2) You were right about the Lotusphere booth for Microsoft. I disagreed at first, but with this announcement I can see that I was wrong. Good call on your part.

    BB

  1. 19  david racicot  | 1/17/2006 3:49:34 PM

    @17. Would you be able to ball park what that cost them on average and how long it took to do? I admit I am being snarky here because I don't believe there is any bottom line value in doing it. They've given up one product that works quite (very) well today, for a solution that requires multiple products to do the same (or less). So what forward movement (for the business) did those IT departments accomplish while all this was happening? On the otherhand I am sure there is good bottom line value in migrating the other way. Through out a hodge podge of half working half vapourware, and install one product. Use the new platform to build good ROI apps for business.

    @Main: I don't think a few 10s of customers justifies calling anything a trend. If there is a small leak of "mistaken" customers going to Exchange whilst new customers are pouring in, I'd say the trend is that the tub/pool/lake/ocean is filling up.

  1. 20  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 1/17/2006 3:50:30 PM

    I was excited to see that Wired covered the news, but that quickly faded to dismay when I saw the Radicati quotes at the bottom of the page....Pfffah

    { Link }

    In the good news department, Lotus Notes Jobs are posted more frequently than Microsoft exchange jobs....

    { Link }

  1. 21  Mike Brown  | 1/18/2006 5:12:41 AM

    @20

    I saw the Wired coverage too, and I'm afraid that's what passes for computer journalism these days. It's practically a Microsoft press release. No analysis whatsoever; just parrot what you've been told.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 22  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 1/18/2006 8:36:29 AM

    Wired did not write the article. It came from Reuters.

  1. 23  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 1/18/2006 8:42:41 AM

    What's weird about the Reuters article is that it cites the outdated and inconsistent Radicati numbers, even though Microsoft cited the IDC numbers in the press release. So they had to go out of their way to be inaccurate. Don't appear to have sought out IBM's opinion, either...

  1. 24  Mike Brown  | 1/18/2006 9:18:46 AM

    @22

    It's still lazy journalism, whoever wrote it.

  1. 25  Colman Carpenter http://carpe.homedns.org | 1/18/2006 10:13:06 AM

    All very interesting ! The timing's obviously significant here, but I've blogged about this cause I think there's another angle too : { Link }

  1. 26  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 1/18/2006 11:31:27 AM

    Oh I addressed the Reuters piece last night (and wrote a FUD song:-) ) at { Link }

    @24 - The key is to blame the right people: Reuters. It is wrong to put the blame on the shoulders of Wired.

  1. 27  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 1/18/2006 2:07:43 PM

    @26 - Doesn't it seem ironic to absolve a media source because they got it from someone else? Doesn't Wired also have some obligation to verify its sources? Otherwise, Wired is just a press release publisher, which is what a lot of media sources have become.

    On a different point, we (Genii Software) sell a product (CoexLinks) to companies who are migrating or have migrated to Exchange or other e-mail systems. It is a coexistence product first, migration product second. The funny thing is, even the companies who start with the idea of migration almost always move to coexistence and never migrate the apps off Notes/Domino. So, even in the cases where e-mail migration takes place, which is usually due to merger or acquisition, application migration is much less likely to do so.

  1. 28  Suresh Varma  | 1/18/2006 4:47:38 PM

    Guess what's special about this page?

    { Link }

    Who do you think is maintaining this server, Is there be a Domino Admin job at MS too?

  1. 29  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 1/18/2006 10:50:56 PM

    @28 that is cool. I would have lost the bet that a Domino based web application is being used on microsoft.com.

  1. 30  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 1/18/2006 10:50:56 PM

    @28 that is cool. I would have lost the bet that a Domino based web application is being used on microsoft.com.

  1. 31  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 1/18/2006 10:54:33 PM

    @28 and others, I know this is slightly off topic but the MS Domino server is Domino Version 4.62 :) which indicates it's been in use for sometime. Possibly some could help them upgrade to Domino 7? :)

  1. 32  Roberto Boccadoro  | 1/19/2006 2:33:11 AM

    @31 No, they did not pay for renewal :-)

    On the other hand........4.62 still in production, doesn't this tell something ? Can't even remember what was the version of Exchange when we shipped 4.6, but I bet there are none left around.

    RoB

  1. 33  Nathan T. Freeman  | 1/19/2006 2:41:14 AM

    I love this remark on the announcement from Red Herring { Link }

    The money quote is: "The move bears the fingerprints of Lotus Notes inventor Ray Ozzie, who was hired by Microsoft in March 2005 when the company acquired Mr. Ozzie’s company Groove Networks."

    I have too much respect for Ray to think this is the best he can come up with to compete with the product he invented. But I can't really blame RH for picking that low-hanging fruit either.

    As far as any story carried in Wired, those guys lost the plot a while ago. Chris Anderson's blog, The Long Tail, ran a story at the end of the year surveying the Fortune 500 companies with public blogs. Wanna know what their researched missed? I-friggin-BM!

    You can spot my correction here: { Link }

    I just don't know how you overlook that, but Rich should be happy to know that his reference page is now Wired's definitive guide to IBM blogs. :-)

  1. 34  david racicot  | 1/19/2006 9:40:06 AM

    Wouldn't it be nice if some of these publications started turning the story around? "Microsoft takes a shot a Lotus and misses ... ". etc... am I dreaming? Can't one source try to cut through the crap and tell the truth. Please! Where are the reputable journalist?

  1. 35  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 1/19/2006 11:50:40 AM

    where has Peter gone and what will his extensive blog post be amended now now?:-)

  1. 36  Nathan T. Freeman  | 1/20/2006 2:30:11 AM

    @35, Ed & Bill have both commented over there.

    Frankly, the Red Bull stuff isn't nearly as entertaining as the latest posting by Peter: { Link }

    It seems SharePoint now boasts *GASP* Discussion and Document Library Templates!! This is a great leap forward in business collaboration.

  1. 37  Peter de Haas http://www.peterdehaas.com | 1/20/2006 2:18:21 PM

    @35

    Chris, no need to make changes I would say ...We could argue it is not extensive enough as I only covered <10% of the press attention the announcement got.

    @36

    Nathan, it is good you find this entertainng but it also shows that you could improve your knowledge of Microsoft's products and solutions a bit ;-).

    These apps have been around since the introduction of SharePoint (SharePoint Team Services)

    { Link }

    They have now been re-packaged / restyled, that's it.