Bah, humbug

December 20 2006

In my e-mail today --
An e-mail from a customer (via a partner) asking if the rumor is true that IBM is going to stop supporting the Notes client after release 8.  

No, the rumor is not true.  IBM has made public commitments to two subsequent releases after that.  There's a whitepaper that has been published for months on the Notes/Domino roadmap.  But it seems that for as long as I've been at Lotus, there's always been this rumor that the next version is the last version, and no matter how much IBM publishes roadmaps, makes public pronouncements, or discusses directions, it persists.

In my e-mail a few weeks ago --
An e-mail from a customer saying that there was a rumor going around that LotusScript would no longer be supported in Notes 8.

No, the rumor is not true.  The question that I asked in response was, what evidence exists to support this rumor?  It was a week or so before beta 1 of Notes/Domino 8, but even at that point, everything that had been published about Notes/Domino 8 made it clear that "Hannover" = Notes.

Maybe I've been on the vendor side of IT for too long, but what I want to know is, how do these rumors even get legs?  I mean, there's no basis in historical action or fact for either of these rumors.  Yet in both cases, someone in an IT organization felt it necessary to go to the vendor directly to answer.  Why why why?

Ed Brill Deerfield, IL USA Category:  Lotus  Add/View Comments [80]

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  1. 1  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 12/20/2006 7:21:03 PM

    You know the answer and if you look deep inside your rolodex, you know who you can call that will just laugh or smile through the phone from their office in MS.

  1. 2  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 12/20/2006 7:34:51 PM

    The ghost of Pre-Lotuspheres past, don't we have this every year around dec 32nd?

  1. 3  Ken Barker  | 12/20/2006 9:15:38 PM

    Hi Ed,

    These rumours get started and have legs...mostly because IBM does an insanely weak job advertising and promoting the Notes/Domino product.

    Bring back Denis Leary!

    /ken

  1. 4  Henry Bestritsky http://www.binarytree.com | 12/20/2006 9:37:50 PM

    These rumors get started because the IBM salesforce is not educated enough to fight for Notes. They would rather eat their own young to push Websphere Portal.

  1. 5  mike  | 12/20/2006 9:41:30 PM

    what @3 and @4 said

    !

    Instead of Denis Leary, Let's go Paris Hilton !

  1. 6  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/20/2006 9:44:36 PM

    Sure didn't take long for the usual "Lotus marketing sucks" complaint.

    I was just reading an article in Infoworld that had a Lotus banner ad and interactive ad right on the page. I've written all year about things like the ads in Irish government publications, inserts in Danish newspapers, and Notes ads in the Wall Street Journal. There's been more Lotus-specific IBM advertising this year than any year since R5 was launched. Notes has been on the front page of ibm.com, in hundreds of press articles, and gets 20-30 mentions a day on blogs. Could there be more? Sure, always. But that's not the problem, and it's certainly not what I'm after here.

    And Henry -- it's not that, either. You know from our offline conversations, and those with our SWAT teams, that there have been hundreds of competitive engagements this year and last where IBM's sales teams are fighting for Notes. And being successful. Despite IBM business partners telling customers that the only way forward for Notes applications is to migrate them to Microsoft (which certainly lends strength to rumors like my second one above).

    Let me try this a different way. What is it about a "Notes is dead" rumor that allows educated, smart people to propogate it or consider it, instead of just going to a browser window and typing www.lotus.com or a google search to find out whether the rumor is true or not? Or is it just people swept up in emotion.

  1. 7  Rob McDonagh http://www.CaptainOblivious.com | 12/20/2006 10:11:51 PM

    In all seriousness?

    Anything, no matter how irrational, repeated often enough, starts to sound likely. Some US political advisors have used this technique to great effect. This is far from the first time we in IT have heard rumors that Notes is dead (though it's a particularly silly time to try and sell that line of fertilizer).

    There is also the history of IBM's difficulty deciding (apparently, to outside eyes) exactly what it was going to do with Notes. There are Steve Mills' infamous remarks about Notes being legacy. The Websphere push of a few years back doesn't help. The addition of DB2 as a data store can be twisted to make the Notes client looks temporary, with Workplace replacing it (now that one looks pretty silly, too...). The use of WAS and DB2 to manage the Sametime gateway can be misinterpreted. The fact that some new features (Activities) in Notes 8 are going to require some WAS technology (just like new features in Notes 5 - transaction logs - required non-traditional Notes technology) can be spun awry. And Lotus' own history of dumping cc:Mail and forcing those customers onto Notes is out there, too.

    Nothing in that list is news to you, of course. So maybe that's not what you're asking for? But at least I didn't say "Lotus marketing sucks!"

  1. 8  Julian Woodward http://www.axiot.com | 12/21/2006 12:27:48 AM

    @6

    >> that's not the problem, and it's certainly

    >> not what I'm after here

    So what are you after?!

    Try this. Go to the BBC web site and type "Microsoft Outlook" (in quotes) into the search box, and you'll get 6 pages of results.

    Type "Lotus Notes" into the same search box, and you'll see 1 page, with only 1 story per year since 2003. The most recent one, the 2006 one, is actually a story about Bill Gates stepping down from Microsoft and Ray Ozzie stepping into his shoes. Hardly positive PR for Lotus.

    Business leaders in the UK don't necessarily read technology press (unless they happen to be techies/geeks), but they probably do read the BBC web site from time to time, and big IT stories are covered in the general BBC news coverage.

    Of course, I'm not going to say that "Lotus marketing sucks", because clearly there's a lot more effort going on than there used to be, and that's a very good thing and to be encouraged and applauded. But defending current marketing on the grounds that it's better than it used to be doesn't really hold water, because for a long time it really DID suck and the only way was up.

    If Microsoft's software was as good as their marketing, we wouldn't be needing this conversation, but it isn't, which means there's still room and opportunity for Lotus. It depresses me when I mention Lotus Notes and get the response "oh is that still around?". Until the average customer/prospect no longer reacts like that, the marketing hasn't yet worked. The benchmark for Lotus marketing needs to be "as effective as Microsoft's", not merely "better than before".

    So back to the original question: perhaps the answer is simply "people are lazy". If Fred hasn't heard of Brand X for many years, he will assume that Brand X has either (a) ceased to exist or (b) retreated into a niche. That's basically the current market perception of Notes/Domino, and it will take a heroic effort and a lot of dollars to change that. Think of all the dollars that have been saved in the last 5 years by not marketing Lotus, then double it and add a bit. That's the 2007 marketing budget ...

  1. 9  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 12/21/2006 12:41:17 AM

    Why do these rumors start? Because there are plenty of people who want them to be true. From competitors and major vendors all the way down the line to end-uesrs for whom Mary Beth's team's work is either unknown or seen as "too little, too late" to solve their immediate pain of being stuck on an old release with poor internal support.

    Why do they get repeated? Because there are plenty of people who want them not to be true, who understand deep down that they can't be true, but who have so much at stake that they are prime targets for every rumor that comes along, and who don't have enough faith in IBM's rationality as an organization to just dismiss them.

    Why do they "have legs". The title of your post suggests the answer: its the Ghost of Christmas Past. Sure, Lotus' marketing doesn't suck now, but it is still haunted by past mis-steps. That's where the lack of faith in IBM's organizational rationality comes from. It will take more than banners and WSJ ads to exorcise this ghost. A lot more.

    In the end, it comes down to this: how much is it worth it to IBM to put an end to the rumors? Anybody looking at this year's and next year's numbers is probably going to say "revenues are great, so why bother spending on big splash marketing just to control rumors?" It will probably take a bleak visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future to change that.

  1. 10  Julian Woodward http://www.axiot.com | 12/21/2006 1:10:30 AM

    Ed

    Further to my post @8

    If the emails are from customers, and they're hearing these rumours, if I were you I would go straight for the jugular and ask precisely where they heard the rumour, who from, under what circumstances, and what is it about the rumour that makes it believable.

    We're all hypothesising on this forum, and naturally giving answers you don't want to hear about poor marketing etc ... the customers themselves are much better placed to answer your question.

  1. 11  Heiko Voigt http://www.sit.de | 12/21/2006 2:28:01 AM

    @6) In my opinion marketing is not only advertising but much more about spotting and generating demand as well as leading product strategies regarding customer and market demands. In these areas, IBM always had some problems (not only in the Notes area) - unfortunately, there is no "real" marketing within IBM (Never heard what IBM Sales people are telling their customers about IBM marketing ? Ask yourself !). I assume, marketing is being looked at as a cost factor and paper-producer, not as a big opportunity for generating business, if it is done the right way (like in M$ ).

    If you look at all the confusion around workplace and notes - is it any wonder, that a lot of people don't trust IBM anymore ? And Workplace was just one example (OS/2, IBM Workplace, eSuite, ...) - if you look down the lane of dismissed products and strategies - there's a lot of frustration within the community.

  1. 12  Thomas Schulte http://www.welovenotesbut.com/blog/ | 12/21/2006 2:42:33 AM

    All what you heard before is also true for germany and more.

    Yes there are more ads then ever before and i am thankful for that because i makes my live a little bit easier.But Domino/Notes is still not happening in the media. Take one IT related publication i have seen on every IT department desk i worked with or for and another one that is widely spread in the "Geek" (sometimes wannabe) community. Computerwoche and heise CT. Take a look at their websites and search for Lotus / Domino / Notes.

    Computerwoche since 1974:

    Lotus Notes 1615 hits

    Exchange 3468 hits

    since 01.01.2006

    Lotus Notes 115 hits and most of them are negative or third party products that will be ripped from their Notes origin.

    Exchange 317 hits also a lot of other stuff but overall not so negative.

    Heise articles

    Lotus Notes 72

    Lotus Domino 43

    Exchange 45

    Outlook 144

    Programming with Notes?

    Never seen any article in there that tells the people that it can do that! And how.

    How to set up a Domino server in 10 steps?

    Nope not there!

    Connecting Domino Applications to SAP made easy?

    some two liners about that it can be done. But not one article that goes into non techie details.

    And heise is read by the techies while Computerwoche is read by IT. And you wonder why those rumors become legs?

    It is not only marketing that counts. Advertising is the base but IBM is still bad at followups.

    Giving people a clue that there are lots and lots of applications available for free. This is not done by IBM and we do not have the power (read money) to do that. In fact it seems that a lot of IBMers, even people who have to do with Domino/Notes directly via the IBM helpdesk, do not know about that.

    It is also a matter of how support from IBM is perceived. My company is a customer (not a big one but we are quite upfront when it comes to new technologies). And we did not see any responsible VB from IBM here in the last 10 years. Nor did we get solid answers to most of the points that we found when developing our own solutions.

    The Notes Community is in fact a very closed group. Most of the active members are people i know, heard or read about from 5 to 10 years ago. But outside of our little boat our influence seems to be to small to make a difference. And that is meant both ways. Directed to IBM and to IT people in general.

  1. 13  Thomas Schulte http://www.welovenotesbut.com/blog/ | 12/21/2006 2:46:17 AM

    Oh i forgot:

    Computerwoche since 1974

    Lotus Domino 859

    Outlook 1707

  1. 14  Andy Dempster http://www.causeforconcern.org.uk | 12/21/2006 3:40:20 AM

    The vast majority of people either don't 'get' Notes or have been insufficiently trained and supported internally. Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds hate and rumours start from there. If you're in the community, you hear the rumours and ignore them. If you're out of the domino knowledge you hear the rumours and believe them.

    I have the mick taken out of me daily by friends in the IT community for being a Notes developer - even by people who still continue to use it, despite claiming to hate it!

  1. 15  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 3:57:58 AM

    Well, mainly because IBM spent several years and several million dollars developing and promoting Workplace as the future. I'm not having a go at Lotus marketing as it is the IBM strategy (at the time) that did the majority of the damage. People don't just turn on a dime and forget what they have been told already.

    Things may be different in the US, but in the UK, certainly in the SME market, Notes isn't really mentioned, other than the 'is that still going?' remark. This can only get worse now that MS has its Sharepoint 2007 stack coming out. It’s looking very good, you don't appear to need a couple of day’s consultation to install it, and it works out of the box. It is just a shame that IBM will have nothing to stack up against it. Or at least if they have, I don’t know what it is.

  1. 16  Henning Heinz  | 12/21/2006 4:39:07 AM

    I do not think that "Just going to a browser window and typing www.lotus.com [...] to find out whether the rumor is true or not" is a good idea and I am surprised that you blame IBM Business Partners!?

  1. 17  Mike Brown  | 12/21/2006 4:43:40 AM

    @15

    "MS has its Sharepoint 2007 stack coming out. It’s looking very good"

    Well, I've not seen it myself, so I'll take your word for it. Although, judging from comments on the Sharepoint Product Group's Blog { Link } , the product relies on ActiveX controls to do its fancy stuff, which means you need to be running IE on Windows (surprise, suprise) to get the full benefit. Other browsers, let alone other platforms, are "second class citzens".

    The point about out of the box functionality is valid though. And there's one simple thing that IBM could do to address this: bundle Quickplace with Notes/Domino. To be honest, I've never understood why QP was a seperately charged product in the first place.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 18  Richard Hogan  | 12/21/2006 4:45:14 AM

    Hi Ed,

    As recently as late 2005 the perception of two of my clients was that Notes was legacy, and this was influencing their decisions to consider other technologies for new projects.

    Just over a year preiously, in mid 2004, I think the Notes community started to get the message that Notes wasn't dead, and in my own case a lot of that message came from conferences, and from edbrill.com.

    However this message doesn't seem to be penetrating the world outside the Notes community sufficiently to counter the impression that had built up over the previous few years. In the case of the two clients I mentioned, I would be surprised if either of the decision influencers had ever seen any ads, or other coverage, for Notes, as I haven't seen any myself (apart from an R7 WSJ ad reproduced on blogs last year)!!

    And it's not just ads. As in the case of @12, I see very little, if any, Notes coverage in the main IT magazine that I read.

    Whether we like it or not there is a large installed perception of Notes being legacy. There is an opportunity, with the launch of Notes 8, to help reverse that, but it will only happen if there is enough fanfare created around the launch that the average person in the street, or at least the average person in the business information and IT depts, hears about it.

    In an ideal (Notes) world, we would have already started to read in our IT magazines how IBM are putting the finishing touches to a major new release of Notes. It would also be good to read coverage of Lotussphere in the general IT mags, with details of the thousands of participants, good news stories,etc.

    I have the impression that IBM marketing are doing a better job, and thanks for that. However there is still work to be done, and I would suggest that press releases to relevant publications may be a very cost effective way of further spreading the message, in addition to any ads that are planned.

  1. 19  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 5:11:47 AM

    @17

    In my opinion, the fact that you need to run IE on a Windows platform is completely irrelevant for the vast majority of SME's as most already run on an MS platform anyway.

    They just want something easy to install and gets them going asap.

    GarryL

  1. 20  Volker Weber http://vowe.net/about | 12/21/2006 5:14:12 AM

    "the product relies on ActiveX controls to do its fancy stuff, which means you need to be running IE on Windows (surprise, suprise) to get the full benefit."

    Try using Quickplace with a Mac. It's completely broken.

  1. 21  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 12/21/2006 5:20:04 AM

    Exchange is dead.

    "Yeah, sure" I hear you say, but where's the roadmap?

    @8 - re. the BBC news site. Glad you've noticed that Julian, it annoys the hell out of me. Every time Microsoft break wind they get a news story (or free adverts for their products as I call them). Our PR people are fed up with me mentioning it.

    @15 - SharePoint 2007 looks good to the smaller businesses, but the analysts are still describing it as departmental and not an enterprise solution... in fact all the same criticisms of the previous versions. Integrates well with Office, as long as you have the version that Microsoft tells you to have.

    @17 - interesting thoughts on QuickPlace, bundling with Domino has been raised before. If you're coming to Lotusphere and get a chance to see the future of QuickPlace I think you'll be very excited... you might even think "SharePoint is dead".

  1. 22  Dave H  | 12/21/2006 5:30:04 AM

    @Ed - I have been a reader of this blog for a long time now, but haven't really contributed much to the comments, but this has hit on an area that has puzzled me about Notes - marketing.

    I'm sure lotus marketing has really stepped up it's efforts, but I have not seen much evidence of it in the UK. Yes, there are the occasional banner ads on tech websites, but every single one of these that I have come across has been for sametime only. No mention for Notes/Domino.

    We are regularly subjected to MS adverts on the Television with their 'People Ready Business tools' slogan, but I have never seen a Notes advert. Why not? You have a fantastic product with Notes - get that message out there more openly. The product possibly should sell itself, but the fact is it won't. It's the better product (imho), but who's to know that when people don't know enough about it.

    I may be alone here, but when I tell people I know at other companies about Notes, I am often met with a "huh? what's that?" kind of response. People clearly don't know it's there in this country. Advertise on the TV and in magazines for Notes/Domino, Sametime, SAP connectivity (SAP have also started TV adverts here recently), the lot. Get the message to not only the top brass of companies, but everyone. This way the message may get passed up through the ranks.

    Remember, people will believe what they are told by a Microsoft salesperson claiming Notes will be dropped by IBM if they do not hear anything to the contrary.

    Finally, I recently attended an England Rugby game at Twickenham where the stadium was plastered with Microsoft boards, including their TV adverts on the big screens there, before and after the game. To me, this seems like a good way to market - getting the attention of people at the game, and those hosting events in corporate boxes at the stadium. I couldn't help thinking that IBM should do the same.

    If IBM are really as committed to Notes as they are now claiming, prove it. Give it the same exposure as the other products on the market. Please, for the sake of those of us who are so passionate about it!

    P.s. Sorry if that sounded like a rant, that's not the intention. I just have a lot of questions about Notes' exposure over here. If anybody can provide evidence of Large amounts of Notes UK marketing, I am willing to stand corrected, but I haven't yet encountered it.

  1. 23  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 5:50:58 AM

    @21 "SharePoint 2007 looks good to the smaller businesses"

    Ah! Whose definition of a 'smaller business'!? IBM says its less than 5000 employee's. That's a lot of businesses. It has been stated before that around half of all Notes installations are SME's.

    Quite a market for MS to go for!

  1. 24  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 5:53:21 AM

    @22

    That's my experience in the UK as well. MS is the default here.

  1. 25  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 12/21/2006 5:57:49 AM

    @23 - okay, I admit "small businesses" is vague. I say less than 2,000 personally. So I would highlight more the general comment about SharePoint being seen as a departmental solution.

  1. 26  Peter Wilson  | 12/21/2006 5:59:35 AM

    Unfortunately Outlook (due partly to Outlook express) is known by my non-IT friends for 'email'. I get blank looks when I mention Notes....

    I also think IBM needs to put out more product specific marketing...not those 'what makes you special?' stuff. It should also be in areas OUTSIDE of the usual IT crowd too! Market those inbuilt (and 3'rd party) Notes applications that you get for 'free' with Notes, and something that Outlook can never do.

    Pete

  1. 27  Mike Brown  | 12/21/2006 6:22:16 AM

    @20

    Vowe, there is now a Hotfix to fix the Mac QP problems - I presume that you mean the stripping off of Carriage Returns problem, here. I've not had a chance to test it as yet though.

    I imagine that it's still plain text only on the Mac, even then.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 28  Marc Garcia http://www.kelros.com | 12/21/2006 7:13:39 AM

    A committed UK Lotus Business Partner with 13 years in the UK market place.

    I can only agree with these comments. The real problem is that all of us on this site are Lotus Notes fans and as such will carry on regardless.

    It seems obvious from these comments that we all agree about past marketing errors, the MS rumour machine, the lack of focused Lotus Notes marketing (advertising, PR, editorials and alike)- especially in the UK SME market place, etc.

    What I think we need is IBM, on a local, country by country basis, to find out why potential Lotus Notes customers believe these rumours, why they want to believe them and what would make them disbelieve them. Based on this research, IBM could formulate the most apt local marketing plans and execute them (all marketing plans to date, albeit better than ever before, are obviously failing otherwise these rumours would not take hold and continue to exist - excuses are just that, the plans have failed, we can all see it).

    Our experience from a brand new telemarketing list purchased 3 months ago of SMEs in the UK with 100-250 employees is that over 95% of them are MS Exchange users, because they have never heard of Lotus Notes! Not because they didn't think Lotus Notes was the best product. As MS users, they are not interested in changing mail platform (nor should they be, they need to focus on their business place). We need to catch these organisations as they grow and when they first implement company based email, internet, intranet, workflow applications, etc.

    Off the back of focused Lotus Notes IBM marketing the Business Partner community could increase the sale of Lotus Notes throughout the whole of the SME market place, thus perpetuating the growth of Lotus Notes forever (because the SME would not be interested in changing to MS).

  1. 29  Glen  | 12/21/2006 7:14:16 AM

    IBM are spending a lot on taking out full page adverts in the UK IT press but I think they just waffle and don't get to the point.

    For example I looked in a recent edition of Computer Weekly and found these 2adverts:

    IBM advert, first 2 sentances - "_SOFTWARE LOG _DAY 34: We're being swallowed by our own inflexibility. Help"

    MS advert, first 2 sentances "A Global Hotel Company Analyzing 1.4 Million Records a Day. Running on Microsoft SQL Server 2005."

    Tell people why Lotus Notes is better than Outlook/Exchange. Better still, give them an incentive to use Notes instead of MS e.g. bundle Quickplace or Sametime (not a cut down version).

  1. 30  Nathan T. Freeman http://www.openntf.org/nathan/escape.nsf | 12/21/2006 7:28:38 AM

    Or alternatively to all the marketing buzz speculation, IBM could leverage the combination of Notes 8 being based in Eclipse and the existing community's efforts, to start touting Notes as an open client. From there, try surfing the Linux wave.

    You'd have to pour money into academic communities to make that work though. You need fresh college graduates coming out of school with a real passion for the product.

    It's just a thought. If IBM had thought it was a good idea when I first mentioned it 5 years ago, we'd be seeing the fruition right about now. *sigh*

  1. 31  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 7:41:43 AM

    @29 is a much better example of ad copy.

    Ed, how about this perspective. Since no one else brought it up yet I will attempt it.

    MS advertises EVERYWHERE to EVERYONE. There in lies the issue. They WANT and NEED the average non-techy WAHM to want Outlook. And they know if they get all of them it grows back into the Enterprise and colleges and soon they know the IT dept. will only want it because they grew up with it.

    When, if ever, did Lotus or IBM ever accomplish or even set out to do this?

    The Fortune 500 may be a large fish, but the consumer world makes that look like peanuts.

    Yeah, this is a much harder and expensive way to do it, but what would you rather have at the end of the day?

    The world to love Notes or just sell more licenses to corps?

    Of course the rumors of Notes being dead never stop, ask GM or Ford about Lexus or Toyota rumors, I bet you would get an interesting parallel going on, its just part of the business and IBM's lack of internal(as seen from external) agreement on communications to the press, clients etc. is a bigger problem for the rumors.

    If Outlook=Camry what does Notes= ?

  1. 32  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/21/2006 8:01:11 AM

    You guys act as if Microsoft is running ads that say "Microsoft Outlook -- it's pretty so use it". But I haven't seen an Outlook-specific ad in years. The "people ready" campaign is admittedly very good, but it's not product-specific anymore than "what makes you special" is. And we can argue whether "what makes you special" is a good theme or not, but it is certainly as pervasive as Microsoft's "people ready" ads. I've seen "what makes you special" on taxis and billboards, football game commericals and websites. IBM is spending on ads -- they just don't say "lotus notes" anymore than "people ready" says "Microsoft Outlook" (or even SharePoint).

    So is there a problem that IBM "image" advertising (which, by the way, is the only advertising most technology companies actually do) doesn't translate into any benefit for Lotus Notes? Do people still not believe, 13 years after acquisition, that Lotus is as much a part of IBM as any other piece? (Yes, I can hear you all bringing up missteps of the past in answer to that)

    Part of the reason I don't like to have the advertising discussion is that there is, unfortunately, little I can do to influence it from where I sit in IBM. But I also know that IBM spends millions of dollars on marketing for Lotus Notes, and much of that is met with "never enough" responses. I can think of dozens of marketing-related things I've blogged this year in the vein of "good news", with nary a comment.

    @18 some good thoughts, but press releases alone don't generate coverage, there's work there, too. I think you will see a lot more press coverage on Notes 8 starting at Lotusphere and beyond. We're not quite at "finishing touches" yet, public beta would be the demarc point for that. So 2007 will definitely have more noise around Notes 8.

    @22 "people will believe what they are told by a Microsoft salesperson claiming Notes will be dropped by IBM if they do not hear anything to the contrary"

    I think this is kind of a thought I was going after in this blog entry. Why will people believe what they are told by a competitor without researching it themselves? I would certainly never expect someone to believe me about Microsoft Exchange/Outlook unless I substantiate my claims with product documentation or analyst reports or press articles. Why is the mere suggestion taken as fact?

  1. 33  Zizzy  | 12/21/2006 8:11:06 AM

    I'll have to say 'ditto' regarding other comments regarding IBM's missteps (no matter how far in the past) as a driving force to these rumors.

    In the government organization under which we are a contractor, they are convinced that Notes is not long for this world and that they will have to eventually move to Workplace (or something else -- I'm praying it won't be Microsoft). They've stated multiple times that the 'IBM reps' have told them that this is the case.

    They are so convinced of this, that we can longer develop new Domino apps, and we are being forced to migrate current apps to become browser-based, mostly using SQL Server and ColdFusion. Eventually our Domino application domain will go away.

    I have nothing against SQL Server and CF, but since we're still keeping Notes as our email solution, it only seems to make sense to keep using it for applications as well.

  1. 34  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 12/21/2006 8:17:57 AM

    All good points, and I appreciate our Lotus faithful explaining things from their perspective "out there in the real world". Now I'd like to ask a few things:

    You say the newly reinvigorated messages about Notes/Domino 8, Sametime, etc are not reaching your companies, or at least not your executives. So I'm curious, what mechanisms did we (IBM) use around the "Workplace" messages that did reach them so successfully? Everyone mentions how during the "2002-2004 dark period of Workplace" executives lost faith in IBM's commitment to Lotus. So I'd like to use those same channels to push the positive messages to them. Why do people remember Ambuj's Workplace messages in his Lotusphere keynote, but not Mike's messages of Notes/Domino from his? Is this simply the case of bad news travels faster and further than good news?

    As others have pointed out (thank you) marketing does not equal advertising. I think there are A LOT of marketing things we can do better at Lotus. Our web sites, our product bundles, interactions with the press, etc... but I'm not as convinced around the advertising space as everyone likes to rant about. Have your executives ever heard of Google, My Space, FaceBook, Second Life? Now ask them what TV commercial it was in? Don't get me wrong, advertising is important, or else we'd not see Coke, Lexus, and iPod commercials all the time. I too would like to see Lotus on TV, magazines, bill boards, sky writing, but I don't think it is the end all to getting mindshare. Mindshare starts with us making products that customers want to be talking about, getting the press, analysts, and Lotus community itself talking about them.

    What I do think is important is what others have mentioned around getting at the base of developers, both current and new, and helping them be active around Lotus. (Lotus, not just Notes/Domino) The move to developing our products on Eclipse is proof that "extensibility" is an important part of our strategy. Nathan those graduates you mention, they are not learning LotusScript in school, but they are learning Java and Eclipse. That does not mean development skills like LotusScript are going away, but it does mean we are embracing (and hopefully enticing) a MUCH LARGER base of potential Lotus developers. I dream of seeing a Notes and Sametime add-on/plug-in community the same way there is one for FireFox extensions. (BTW, no offense, but please don't think you had some great epiphany around reaching university students that we internally have not been promoting for a very long time. But still, keep the ideas coming.)

    As far as the complaints about IBM not understanding SMB, I do understand how IBM can be intimidating to small companies, and that we don't built the "relationships" that we should. This is an area where we really do count on our partner community to "soften the blow of working with IBM". However, we don't view SMB as 5000 people as stated in @23. The Notes/Domino express family is for companies of 1-1000 employees. Yes, a 1 person shop can buy Domino.

    So yes, we've got a lot of work to do, but I really think we are on the right path. We're very committed to Notes/Domino, Sametime, QuickPlace, Portal, Forms, as well as enhancing and evolving the portfolio with a ton of new collaborative capabilities that you'll hear about at Lotusphere. Do I wish we were more "open" about what we were doing, getting the messages out there sooner, more often, and making them easier to find? Yes, I do. But we're working on it.

    Alan Lepofsky - Senior Manager Lotus Strategy and Evangelism

  1. 35  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 8:19:30 AM

    I think, as many have said, that if Notes came with full-blown supported apps in the vein that you get with Sharepoint, which worked and looked the same in both client and browser, things would be a lot more balanced with MS.

    I suspect that isn't happening because that would (in IBM's view) affect other items in their software catalogue or alternatively a Business Partners app.

  1. 36  GarryL  | 12/21/2006 8:42:32 AM

    @ 34 "what mechanisms did we (IBM) use around the "Workplace" messages that did reach them so successfully?"

    You didn't. It was the huge level of negative 'Notes is dead' type press coverage that they read as a result of the Workplace strategy starting up.

    You (IBM) just lit the fuse and walked away.

  1. 37  Chris Forrett  | 12/21/2006 9:10:13 AM

    It is easy for people like me to criticize and I respect you Ed for allowing people to voice their opinions, but the views expressed here seem to be wide spread here and in my experience so I think they are valid. I know there are many things you can not change at IBM Ed.

    Every time some one here says - IBM your not doing this or that, IBMers comment "Oh no - not true we did this, we are doing that etc.

    My point and I think that of others is, what ever you are doing is not working.

    If there is a perception that Notes is dead - what ever you are doing is not working.

    If (in my opinion) lots of Notes developers say that you are not reaching SMB - what ever you are doing is not working.

    If people here say that customers often say - Is Notes still around? - what ever you are doing is not working.

    It is good to explain what you are doing but pointing out that "oh no we are doing this or that" with out admitting that it is not working, maybe someone at IBM is missing the point. I do not have the answers.

    Sorry if the sounds critical, it is not meant to be negative just accurate in my opinion. I hope things improve thanks.

  1. 38  Does My Boss Loves Notes?  | 12/21/2006 9:17:52 AM

    Somebody help me understand this...

    I recently started working for a company that is a Notes shop for messaging and collaboration, and have been for several years. We have outsourced a lot of our IT services to IBM and have several more years in the contract.

    What I don't understand is, why have we started piloting sharepoint and live communication server? And more importantly, why doesn't our CIO (Who has been with the company since the start of time) know about SameTime and QuickPlace?

  1. 39  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/21/2006 9:40:34 AM

    @37, actually, I have hard data to dispute many of your "what ever you are doing is not working" assertions. As contentious as this will be to say, I assert that since this blog had 200,000 unique visitors during 2006, and maybe only 2000 unique people who left comments, and that whole countries like Japan don't read this blog, the voices that do speak here represent only one segment of the population.

    At any rate, some of it isn't working, true, but a lot of things are working. We have eight consecutive quarters of publicly-reported revenue growth for Notes/Domino as proof of that.

    Could it all be working -better-? Some things, yes. And that's why I blog topics like these.

  1. 40  Mike Wissinger  | 12/21/2006 9:42:02 AM

    @34

    What got the message out successfully? As I understand it, you told the sales reps at IBM that you'd pay them more money if they sold Workplace or Portal. If they were going to do that, the easiest market was existing Domino shops with whom they and their BPs already had relationships. All of a sudden, new Domino leads dried up and we BPs couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an pitch about how great it would be if we got to show all the new stuff to customers who already had their needs met with Notes.

    Meanwhile, MS was able to say things like "J2EE is a fuzzy idea and programmers are expensive, but .net is easy" and "There are tons of MCSEs so you'll never have trouble finding staff" and "You don't need to train people to use Outlook because everyone already uses it at home." True or not, there are a lot of people with the power to sign checks who don't have (or don't take) time to verify.

    Now, I'm not in sales so I may be completly misinterpreting this dynamic, but don't think message is going to have as much influence as money _inside_ IBM. Provide additional Domino sales incentives and I would expect that the good messages you already have in place will make their way more effectively into the client offices. That will cover the clients who don't look before they leap.

    For those buyers who do take the time to know what they're buying, make sure that the product actually matches the message. Putting a yellow label on a WebSphere product doesn't change the fact that you'll need new expertise and additional hardware to install and manage it (RTC gateway). Decisions like this, especially when the pre-release hype had us all believing that RTC was a part of Sametime 7.5, make our SMB relationships difficult.

    Finally, thanks for having the conversation. I know there are big decisions involving lots of money going on up there and it looks like we're giving you a beating, but I at least feel better being in on the process, even if the final result doesn't fall the way I'd like.

  1. 41  Simon Barratt http://apps.fmc.com/blog.nsf | 12/21/2006 9:45:58 AM

    @38, maybe you ought to go and ask your boss those questions?

  1. 42  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 9:58:27 AM

    @36 right on! Although I, for one, was excited by the Workplace idea, I realized it was taking a person's pen or pencil and replacing it with pieces from a manufacturer and asking you to build a pen. Not cool! Just stupid!

    Websphere might be everything to IBM, but it isn't to the guy down the street trying to work out SOA or a portal for his ebusiness on a shoestring is it?

    @38, because IGS is not ISSL

    @34, sometimes you have to leave the house to see what color the paint is.

    I too handled evangelism for Lotus EMEA with Uffe and while it is/was the greatest job to have, your friends think you are insane for backing the losing horse. Underdog? We used to be the leader and we suffered like Novell when they lost the NOS. Change it?

  1. 43  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 10:02:50 AM

    I think it comes down to mindshare. Microsoft has it, IBM doesn't. Microsoft makes consumer software, IBM makes business software. Nobody grew up using anything from IBM other than the hardware (yes, I know about OS/2, which is aptly referred to as "OS/who?"). The interesting part is people knew Lotus until 1-2-3 was supplanted by Excel. Then Lotus became a niche player and people forgot about it. Notes has always been business software and never marketed to consumers.

    Like it or not, Microsoft's vision of computing is the one everyone knows. They don't have to market specific products anymore. People know Outlook and generally like it, so all it takes is a shiny new screenshot and they're all over it. How many people use Notes for reading their home e-mail? Outside the people reading this blog it's most likely a number approaching 0. Even within this readership it's probably no more than a few percentage points.

    Notes is foreign to everyone because you only ever see it in business. The earliest you could possibly expose people to it would be in a post-secondary setting. That brings up the next portion of the mindshare equation: techies.

    I've been very vocal about this and at the risk of repeating myself I'll say it again: Notes development SUCKS. It's not that LotusScript and Formula aren't cutting edge. It's that the development environment is circa 1993. (I know it was released in 1995. It was seriously behind the times when it was introduced.)

    The answer, to me, is simple. Give techies a better development experience so they will sing its praises, and expose people to it before they reach the business world. And that brings me to why people see "Notes is dead" and believe it.

    Over the past 7 - 8 years I have watched a tremendous amount of resources go into Websphere and related technologies, with much less focus being put on Notes and Domino. From where I sit it appears that IBM has used Notes as the cash cow to fund a Websphere and Java future. We saw the "two lane highway" message, with Workplace being the clear successor to Domino and Notes. That didn't work, customers stayed away in droves, and IBM finally had to admit defeat.

    I don't think IBM learned from that mistake, though. Customers sent a clear message that they don't want a complicated environment and they wanted to extend their current investment. However new products being delivered are not shipping on Domino. They're on Websphere and DB2. So even though the language has changed, the message is still the same. IBM's future is Websphere.

    If you want people to stop believing that Notes is dead or a dead-end you have to prove it. Deliver new products on Domino. Address old issues. Respond to complaints about the lack of functionality. Notes 8 is taking some steps to address those issues, but it's not going far enough. For the most part only the client is being addressed. There is already an exodus away from Domino by people who have grown frustrated with waiting. By the time the developer side of things gets ironed out in 8.x or 9.x you'll have lost at least one more passionate developer.

  1. 44  Dave H  | 12/21/2006 10:03:52 AM

    @32 "Why will people believe what they are told by a competitor without researching it themselves? I would certainly never expect someone to believe me about Microsoft Exchange/Outlook unless I substantiate my claims with product documentation or analyst reports or press articles. Why is the mere suggestion taken as fact?"

    I suppose they may not necessarily believe it outright, but it could cast doubts - doubts which are clearly finding their way back to you from customers. The emails you receive are just those who have the sense to do their own investigative work, or contact someone in the know. Others may not take such steps and jump on whatever bandwagon they hear people talking about. If you hear such a claim about Exchange, you know it's nonsense because they have the press coverage and marketing campaigns to prove otherwise. Lotus doesn't appear to have the same - Only those who make the effort to research it/go to Lotusphere are in the know.

    (Remember this is a UK perspective, I can't comment on the US or rest of Europe)

    The thing with the rumour mill is that it doesn't seem to matter if it is built on lies, it still influences people. A sad fact, but it's true. I may have focussed a bit too much on advertising before but that is a prime way of showing people that you're still there and not going to go away. Show off the product and people will be impressed. Word of mouth will spread.

    You're right Ed about Microsoft advertising not being so product specific anymore. That is a good thing; so why are all the lotus adverts I see on websites advertising collaboration through Sametime 7.5? Shouldn't they be plugging Lotus' entire range of collaboration software? The only reason we highlight Notes specific advertising is because we can't find any.

    @34 - Alan, I agree that Google etc didn't use TV/magazine advertising to get where they are, but I stand by the point that advertising is a crucial factor in marketing. A good advert gets people talking, leaves an impression of a product in the viewer's mind. You need to get people talking about Notes again in order to utilise other marketing forms such as the press.

    The examples you give got where they are mainly from press coverage; as people have already pointed out, Notes doesn't get a great deal of that over here either. The point is that you need to get the attention of the non-technicals who think cars when you mention Lotus, and 'post-its' when you mention Notes. I just don't want to see the launch of Lotus Notes 8 go unnoticed in the UK by potential customers - we're all on the same side here, not just looking to take jabs at IBM - for a lot of us this is our livelihoods.

    Ed, I know that you can't do a lot about the marketing issues, but this blog is read by a lot of IBMers too, so hopefully someone reading it can. This is why you often find comments that you can't directly answer; we're [the notes community] hoping to bring others into the discussion.

    The new UI of Notes 8 is the perfect opportunity to try to re-launch Notes and convince the 'Notes sucks doubters' and the IT press of Notes' capabilities. Please don't waste it because you think that word of mouth/the community/the product itself will sell it for you. It is the opinion of most here that this is not enough.

    At work, we are a Notes house here and luckily my boss is a Notes fan, but he is constantly fending off people wanting to migrate. Some departments have even taken it upon themselves to start trialling Groove. I really do think that improving public awareness of Notes might spur people into learning more about it - therefore understanding its benefits more.

    As with 40, thanks for taking the time to discuss such issues. It's good to know that you are at least reading our comments!

  1. 45  Nathan T. Freeman http://www.openntf.org/nathan/escape.nsf | 12/21/2006 10:10:22 AM

    @34 - Whatever IBM has done to try to reach the enthusiast community beyond the existing Domino community, it's definitely not working. Notes has one of the worst reputations around among academics of any commercial software product out there. True, a lot of them hate MS products too, but that doesn't seem to help the perception of Notes.

    This is particularly tragic because there is SO MUCH incredible technology underneath. The 15+ year history of the product should be a case study in effective software design, but I bet not a single instructor at any top 10 IT/CompSci school in the country has any familiarity with it. (and I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on that.)

    It would just help if there were a spotlight on all the GEE WHIZ factors underlying Notes. Replication, key-based security, CD records a decade before anyone came up with XML -- all of these belong in a classroom setting.

  1. 46  Dave H  | 12/21/2006 10:17:45 AM

    @44 - I should clear up that when I mention departments trialling groove, that is for the collaboration features - they still want outlook for email!

  1. 47  Rob McDonagh http://www.CaptainOblivious.com | 12/21/2006 10:38:27 AM

    Another consideration: walk into a bookstore and look for books on Notes or Domino. You may find one or two. Then count up the ones on Microsoft's products - there will be dozens. How do they get people to write those books? I don't know. Maybe they even subsidize the authors. Or maybe it's a case of the chicken or the egg, where the books exist because of the perception that Exchange is the dominant messaging platform (and .NET or Java vs Domino development, etc), while nobody bothers to write Domino books because nobody buys Domino books (because ... nobody uses Domino ... or so one would infer).

    I know this particular point has been raised before. I don't have an answer or even a suggestion for how to fix it. But we're talking about perception here, and all of these items are a factor in the perception that Notes/Domino is a dying product. Even those of us who know better get discouraged, as you can see from this thread.

  1. 48  Joe Litton http://www.joelitton.net/ | 12/21/2006 11:03:01 AM

    We see in elections (at least here in the USA) that voters pay attention to short ads. They often believe deliberately deceptive statements without researching for themselves to reach their own conclusions. Television and radio and print media are trusted, often without regarding the source or validity of the message.

    I believe it is similar with IBM and MS customers. Often proper research may not be undertaken by the individual. Therefore it is critical for IBM to help make such research as fruitful as possible when it DOES take place.

    Regarding the FALSE rumour about no LotusScript in Notes 8, this has been addressed in some blogs (notably Jeff Eisen's very clear post). But trying to find a clear statement on the IBM/Lotus site about what is and is not available for development in Notes 8 is difficult at best.

    Just now I went to the Hannover page: { Link } and checked the documents available there. Specifically, I searched "A preview of the next release of Lotus Notes software (white paper)", "Lotus Notes 7 datasheet", "IBM Lotus Notes and Domino 7: The new face of business communication and collaboration (Executive brief)", "Innovation without migration", "Lotus Notes 8 Overview", and "FAQs". Note that 2 of those documents are actually about Notes 7, not Notes 8. None of these documents contain the word "LotusScript", nor any reference to Formula language. All mention one or more of Java, J2EE, Eclipse, and/or Web 2.0.

    It would be very helpful for IBM to clearly, explicitly state in these documents or up front on the Notes 8 page something to the effect that existing Notes development languages, such as Formula language, LotusScript, JavaScript, and Java will continue to be included with Notes 8; Notes 8 adds to the existing rich set of tools by offering the developer the opportunity to build composite applications ...etc.

    A business must stress what is NEW to help customers understand why they should want to upgrade; IBM does this well. It is also critical to clearly emphasize what is RETAINED, and this is where IBM needs to improve.

  1. 49  Cesar Zavala  | 12/21/2006 11:03:16 AM

    About the rumors, I'd think and somehow hope that IBM comes with a campaign that somehow says something like "Rumors were always wrong: Notes is live and stronger than ever" or something that puts the IBM Business Partners in a position to say "hey, we were always right, Notes 8 is here, supported, here it's the roadmap" ... and "the people that told you Notes was dead are missinformed", so don't trust them, trust me!!!

    Rumors will always be there, so I hope IBM messages put their partners in a position to disqualify competitors that send them.

  1. 50  Cesar Zavala  | 12/21/2006 11:08:50 AM

    Sorry for the subject, but the only Lotus product I found while trying to buy online in IBM Mexico was Workplace Services Express. Here it's the link to IBM products for SMBs(in spanish): { Link } . You can follow the only yellow (Lotus) dot there and see yourself.

    Another thought: all the SMB marketing is good, and Express families (everywhere, in Lotus, Db2, Tivoli) are great! But if you still need a business partner or a "complex" process to buy 1 Notes license, you will always be trailing Microsoft. I went to IBM Mexico - Workplace services express and found no link to buy online (did they lie?), they said I have to contact a business partner. And that, at least in 3rd world country, to me sounds like time and money.

    In the US version, I didn't find Domino under "Applications Servers" or "Data and Information Management" ... oh, there it is under "Messaging Applications". And yes, I added it to the cart and it looks like I could buy online. Can you do that for Mexico? Please?

  1. 51  Sean Jennings  | 12/21/2006 11:17:45 AM

    I have to agree completely with @8 and @22.

    As a Notes developer, most of the IT people I meet have the impression that Notes is dead. Few non-IT that I meet even know what Notes is...

    Looking to the future, here in the UK, I'd like to see IBM's marketing machine gear-up and focus on the Notes 8 launch.

    Making a big enough splash everywhere to everyone will send the message loud and clear that Notes isn't dead once and foreall, and also get the ignorant asking about Notes.

    But don't wait until the launch, instead drip-feed exclusive 'leeks' to the likes of the BBC web-site. Journalists always welcome easy-copy. Court those who from previous articles appear to be anti-MS or pro-Linux or pro-Mac.

    Advertise in the non-technology press; ie national newspapers.

    Get a tv advert for Notes (and nothing but Notes) in the commercial-breaks for a high-visibility show like "Pop Idol" (the UK version of "American Idol"). Maybe even become the sponsor for one of these tacky but hughly popular shows?

    To quote Oscar Wilde;

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.”

  1. 52  Keil Wilson  | 12/21/2006 11:55:40 AM

    Ed, I think you hit on one good point in @32. When I see IBM ads, I rarely equate them with Notes. In fact, when I see an IBM Websphere banner on something like CNet, I feel like it's reinforcing this perception that Websphere (and it's associated products) are the "future" of IBM. Is Lotus really a brand that is still seen as separate from IBM? Seems to me that part of what we're fighting here is not just a battle with MS's marketing, but also this perception that Lotus (and Notes specifically) is the red-headed step child at IBM. Is my organization the only place where people seem so eager to believe that Notes is legacy (read "has no future")? It is incredibly frustrating to know what I know about Notes/Domino and the road map Ed keeps talking about, and yet still have to fight off rumors that the CIO is thinking about going to Exchange (like we can just flip a switch).

  1. 53  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 12/21/2006 12:01:06 PM

    @34: You ask if teh executives ever heard about Google, MySpace and similar sites. Yes, they have. From whom? Probably from their teenage kids. The same kids that get to buy Office Student Edition cheap, have Microsoft software (including Outlook or Outlook Express) in school, and that like a nice, slick, elegant interface (i.e. Outlook, not Notes).

    People care about eye candy. Yes, I know Notes 8 will be much prettier. But it may be too little, too late. Notes is now "known" for being ugly.

    The best marketing is the viral one, or when it comes from the lower ranks of the company. Example: Joe Bob Manufacturing hires a new guy in IT or accounting. He is just out of college/university, where he spent the last 4 or 5 years working on Microsoft products. He also use Office and Outlook at home, since the student edition was given to him, or he couild buy it really cheap.

    What platform do you think he will push at work? Think he may tell all his co-workers about all the benefits of Outlook and Exchange over "the ugly and old Notes"?

    What do you think old Joe Bob himself will do when someone with a Masters in Computer Science tells him that Exchange is the way to go?

    What should IBM do? Perhaps ut more resources into colleges and universities? Push Notes and Domino to students?

    What about creating a "Domino Student Edition", a free product that let a student setup a Domino server and develop applications just to learn. Include a rich online training program, provide some inexpensive books on Domino development, and give links to online resources like OpenNTF.org. When they see what they can do, they will like the product. Now which product do you think they will recommend when they get out in real life?

    This of course assumes that IBM plan to keep Notes alive more than 4-5 years, since this is a long term project.

  1. 54  Chris Forrett  | 12/21/2006 12:08:29 PM

    I think @49 has a great idea. Who cares why the idea exists, just attack the problem head on (because that's what lot's of potential customers think anyway)and say not only is not dead it's new features make it productive than the competition.

    If advertising repeats that over and over I think some CIO's might be open to saying listening to what it can do.

  1. 55  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/21/2006 12:14:56 PM

    @53 "This of course assumes that IBM plan to keep Notes alive more than 4-5 years,"

    This is how rumours get started. :-)

    IBM has already made that commitment to the product, publicly.

  1. 56  david racicot  | 12/21/2006 1:44:13 PM

    It's all about them little yellow dots on the product page Ed. { Link } If IBM doesn't get it internally, how do you expect the masses to?

  1. 57  John Ryan  | 12/21/2006 2:16:31 PM

    First, Ed, as always, thanks for this blog.

    I think rumours are born and people seem to fail to listen because of perception. Yes, advertising/marketing is part of that, but not all.

    Alas, there is both word and action. Mike Rhodin got onto the stage last year at LS2006 and stated in a clear, simple, straightforward manner...that Notes/Domino was not going away. That those words even had to be spoken is amazing to me considering the 100+ million users out there. Did they fall on deaf ears? No, it's IBMs actions that have made it seem that way.

    IBM publicly mentions that Lotuscript will be in the next two releases. Did that fall on deaf ears? No, but what does that mean? The next two releases, is that two years? Three? Does that mean if a company has a ton of Domino apps with LS that you better start converting them now? So, does that mean it's not going away after Hannover, but is in a period of time that signals companies to change?

    There were a couple of "dark" years (as Alan put it @34). A perception was started.

    But the perception becomes more solidified not from the words that have been spoken, but by the actions that have occured. Notes/Domino seems to have taken a back seat to WSE, Portal, DB2, eForms, Expeditor, Eclipse. When sighting the "Roadmap" whitepaper, Activity-centric computing is clearly listed as a "key capability"...which requires WAS and DB2. None of this has much to do with NSF. The NSF, the foundation that captured the 100+ million user base. The core of Notes/Domino as so aptly decribed by Damien Katz in one of his blog entries that garnered much attention. "Legacy" software? Both SQLServer and DB2 have been around longer or as long(1989 and 1978). How is Domino Legacy? Lack of improvements make it perceived as legacy.

    The Notes designer, getting replaced, not transformed.

    Why didn't the Notes designer receive changes to make it a more rich development environment and enhance it's open stardard capabilities to be extendible for JAVA/J2EE and .NET? Why didn't it get the few differnt capabilities that eForms offers like pixel-perfect development of forms, rather than have a separate product..or even integration capabilities like a parser to store the xml in NSF. That would have been a better perceived message.

    The Notes client, getting replaced, not transformed.

    Why didn't things like the portal like Welcome page get transformed and improved...rather than create a whole new WSE product? Or get the Expeditor capabilities or eForms functionality. That would have been a better perceived message.

    I did a presentation at the Chicago Notes/Domino user group a week and a half ago (by the way, first time to Chicago, what a beautiful city!). About 20ish people were there, from companies that use Domino. The presentation after me was on eForms...which has nothing to do with Notes/Domino. The perception is reinforced.

    Also, people watch IBM wrap there new offerings in yellow as argued by @40. Just because you brand it, doesn't make it so. It raises questions and forms perception.

    To companies, this all works together and signals a time to make a decision. A technology decision. Should we consider WSE, Portal, DB2, eForms, Expeditor, Eclipse..and move to that? The perception is that this is complicated and expensive. Meanwhile, MS is putting out a user configurable software with a message about document based sharing and collaborating, sounds like Notes/Domino. Looks simpler and they are practically giving it away...with a whole pile of templates.

    Companies can feel betrayed. The Notes/Domino community know all too well what it is like to "fight" for the better solution, for years. They can feel like they are getting side-swiped. Sucker-punched. What part of the message..from emerging IBM technology options to marketing does not give the impression that Domino is going away? It doesn't matter that IBM said something, their action in technology speaks. With Roadmaps that have key components that need DB2 and WAS, how does that not signal moving away from the NSF?

    I will be waiting to see what big improvements were made to the NSF engine at LS2007. If its not about the NSF, its about something else. The NSF and what it offers is what people associate with Notes/Domino.

    What people are exposed to from IBM is what forms the perception. There is not some rumour starting conspiracy coming from MS. All that is coming out of there is genious marketing and market analysis. Rumour is not the right word. It's perception...and IBM is the biggest cause of whatever the perception is. People are listening and watching.

  1. 58  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/21/2006 2:36:14 PM

    @57 John, I could easily rewrite your comment by substituting "DOS", "C Prompt", "8.3 filenames", and all sorts of other things as what made Microsoft's OS. None of them matter to Microsoft's OS anymore, but it's still Microsoft's OS. We've incorporated more complexity over time, no? I didn't have to know what a registry was and then I did (just one example).

    Why is a software vendor not allowed to bring in new technology to add value to the overall equation? The NSF isn't the NSF from version 1 (even though IBM has done more for Notes forward/backward compatibility than any vendor)... it's got transaction logging (taken from DB2) for example. So that was seamless and you didn't have to do much to take advantage of it. If the same is done with other technologies (i.e. the Activities UI in the Notes 8 client), then why is it "betrayal" to do it?

    Oh and I vehemently disagree with "The Notes client, getting replaced, not transformed." How can you say that, when everything we're doing with Notes 8 carries forward everything that Notes has done since version 2, but now on an open platform? That is NOT replacement!

  1. 59  Rob Ingram http://www.dominoblog.com | 12/21/2006 2:56:33 PM

    If IBM were to tell you that we are in fact adding development resources and investing more in Notes and Domino future releases (plural), would anyone believe us?

    I'm starting that rumor today to see if it sticks - hey, it might even be true :)

    All check out dominoblog.com for some of what's coming soon in the NSF server engine we call Domino 8.

    Rob Ingram, Domino Product Manager

  1. 60  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 12/21/2006 3:27:45 PM

    @36 I know that perception is obviously more important than fact, so I don't want to sound like I am preaching that anyone is wrong. Tie that together with @37's comments that IBM always responds by saying "But we are..." , and I feel bad, but I need to post this anyway! I don't agree with the comment about Lotus walking away. Since Workplace surfaced, we've shipped several Notes/Domino 6.5.x and Notes/Domino 7.x releases. We shipped the Notes for SAP solutions, Notes clients for MAC and Linux, and it can now run off USB devices. We also added blogging, and shipped Sametime 7.5. So there you have it, my expected IBM "defensive response".

    I know that even with all the "good" that I've listed, the perception is that things are still not working. I also understand that you don't like the fact that Lotus is now more than NSF, it is also about WAS and DB2.

    I agree with almost all of the areas pointed out in this thread. I'd also like to see improved web sites, better customer interactions from the Sales teams, more involvement from Lotus Business Partners, more Lotus specific advertising, more Lotus books, and more Lotus content in universities. But I can also tell you that IBM cares A LOT about Lotus.

  1. 61  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 12/21/2006 3:32:08 PM

    @57 "The presentation after me was on eForms...which has nothing to do with Notes/Domino". What??? True the Forms server does not run on Domino, but Forms can have A TON to do with Notes. Developers can embed the Forms viewer into a Notes form, and have users push a "Create New" action button in a Notes view, fill out a form, save that form, and have the document saved into the NSF, and have the fields show up in columns in Notes views. In other words, Forms can be VERY integrated into Notes. The Domino server simply needs to run a JSP that maps the data inside the XML document to the Notes fields on the form. I've seen this demos many times, and is very cool.

  1. 62  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 12/21/2006 3:39:09 PM

    @57, I don't buy that story about Microsoft. A more accurate line would be "Should we consider Vista, Outlook, Exchange, Office, Groove, SQL, SharePoint, InfoPath, Active Directory, Biz Talk, Dynamics, .Net, Visual Studio, ... and move to that? The perception is that this is complicated and expensive."

  1. 63  Volker Weber http://vowe.net/about | 12/21/2006 3:47:00 PM

    12 years ago, when I started working with Notes on OS/2, it was kind of cool. Odd, but cool. Internet access was unheard of outside academia. Notes users dialed up into their Notes servers, often over long distance. Replication was a life saver. You could build applications unheard of.

    Notes 4 brought some eye candy, and my customers quickly upgraded. At the same time, the Internet "happened". The web was to the sweep Notes away. You can argue that Notes still gained 10s of millions of users. But in a way, Notes was no longer sexy. There were new supermodels. The web gained 100s of millions of new users. Its growth outclassed Notes. Lotus released Notes 4.5 and named the server Domino.

    Eight years later we still have the same application model. Notes applications with off line usage on one side, Domino web applications on the other side. It's all serious and good business. But it ain't sexy. Has not been on covers anymore, and is rarely seen on the catwalk.

    Yes, you can put on some makeup, go see a doctor, but the young guns are looking elsewhere. Notes, yeah, I heard that. Is she still modelling?

    Even supermodels retire.

  1. 64  John Ryan  | 12/21/2006 3:53:59 PM

    @58 Hi Ed. You know, I'm just talking about perception. I think there is a difference between moving a client forward to incorporate more functionality, rather than starting a new client and bringing in everything from the other client.

    Also, there is nothing wrong with bringing in new technology, but there is a perception with the approach. So, to use MS as an example, if they were to come out with a different database solution, or word processing solution and seem to put most of their resources toward that...then the MS crowd would be wondering what was going to happen with SQL Server and Word. Competitive vendors would be all over that. I would argue that a bad impression would be left.

    @59, well yes I believe that "rumour" already exists out there and the people know of it and are excited about it. I think there are two perceptions. First, a cautionary sentiment that IBM "might" be "getting it". And the other, IBM finally realized that they better do something quick.

    And just to mention, because I feel I should. I am excited about LS2007. I am excited about Hannover and Domino 8. I am a huge proponent of Domino. I am not being facetious about wanting to hear about the improvements in the nsf and welcome DB2 as an alternate back-end. The passionate responses here (even if negative) are from the loyal and committed.

  1. 65  John Ryan  | 12/21/2006 4:02:31 PM

    @62, Alan, I disagree. The reason this blog thread (and others like it) go down the road of "not marketing enough" and "Domino going away or not" and so on are testimony to the perception that is being encountered. My entry is not disputing functionality or number of components that make up a total solution.

  1. 66  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 4:35:38 PM

    @58 - Extending (such as adding transaction logging) is different than investing resources in developing a competing platform. Everything Notes or Domino related that has been deployed on WAS and DB2 could not have done been done on Domino or Domino + NSFDB2. No one has argued that fact and the reasons I've heard provided for that decision have ranged from weak to absurd. That's one part of the betrayal.

    Domino's promise has always been that it's simple to install, admin and upgrade. Now it's Domino + DB2 + WAS, and potentially multiple instances of DB2 and WAS. That's the second part of the betrayal.

    The message coming from Microsoft and now IBM is that an integrated collaboration solution takes a lot of moving parts. Domino proves that wrong, so what changed over the years to make that exponential complexity necessary?

    @61 - You just proved my point. To get eForms integrated into Notes you have to stitch it together with a JSP, XML and WAS. I'm not IBM and I don't represent a company with a legion of developers. I'm flying solo and for me that's not "simple".

  1. 67  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 4:36:25 PM

    err... screwed that up, it should read:

    Everything Notes or Domino related that has been deployed on WAS and DB2 could have done been done on Domino or Domino + NSFDB2.

  1. 68  Peter Smith  | 12/21/2006 4:50:01 PM

    Just logged on and waded through 65 responses :-)

    My take on the original "why why why" question, from a UK SMB view point, is the all pervasive Microsoft marketing. As mentioned previously, they now don't advertise specific products, just concepts / themselves, and really thats all they need to do.

    They benefit in the same way drug companies do from customers buying branded products, when the same benefit can be achieved for a reduced cost if they buy a generic brand - people are just buying the name.

    The pressure to move to MS in a lot of cases comes from users, non IT directors etc. who merely have to buy the generic Microsoft message, and the IT Dept is then thrown onto the defensive having to justify Domino - again and again.

    This is enormously difficult to counter, and I don't think saying "more marketing" will help. The problem is the public (who form our users) can't make the link between IBM and Lotus, so IBM advertising doesn't generate the same effect for Domino /Notes as an MS advert does for Outlook / Exchange.

    So people believe these rumours because they are positioned as pro MS, which is a brand they understand and have visual reinforcement for every day, and by believing them they reinforce their own brand perception (getting out of my depth here).

    What would I like to see? A Notes 8 campaign showing an MD sending a Word or Excel document to all his staff, with the tag line "it's costing you £150(guess) for every person to read that, with Notes 8 it would be free"...

  1. 69  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 12/21/2006 7:47:10 PM

    I have received an email from IBM which I am posting to my blog and discussing. It shows IBM is trying to be more engaging with customers, yet also provides an insight to some of the issues highlighted here.

  1. 70  samuel dehuszar allen  | 12/21/2006 8:00:02 PM

    Lots of good stuff here.

    First off, Alan, I am super-stoked that IBM is moving Notes to Eclipse and by extension, Mac & Linux(Linux moreso than Mac), but we are an isolated bunch us techies!

    If a product releases itself in the woods and there's no one there to hear it...

    One thing I've heard several times from different sources is that Partners involving IBM in the course of a sale (for questions on implementation or what have you), the IBM'ers hijacked the sale and proceded to try and upsell the customer to a was package.

    If IBM is trying to lead people towards was & away from notes/domino when interacting with their and their partners' clients, then who needs rumors?

    I'm a domino shop of one. So if you add activity-centric computing but it needs a was server & a machine capable of running it, then I don't see how that's any different than MS forcing 64bit requirements down our throat.

    Sure, I only need PIII + 1gb of RAM to run Domino, & on that I can scale myself right out of the express offerings. But to use the new features... I need a dual processor machine with 4GB!

    So how do I parse out whether or not Notes is dead or not? I was pretty stoked about activity centric computing, but now it seems that I don't get to play without a serious reinvestment. If that's the road to the future than notes is dead for me!

    Without knowing about what licences I'd have to purchase just to get the was server installed, that's a huge new learning curve, more setup & configuration, tuning, security auditing, AND new hardware. For what? One feature? The RTC Gateway? Any eForm functionality that requires the eform server? I know these are tough decisions to make, but from here it sure LOOKS like all the attention's going to was and all the Notes stuff is getting abandoned, except where it assists in the implementation of was-based features.

    Incidentally, I was at the chicago user-group meeting, and the IBM specialist essentially said that you can integrate many aspects of workplace forms into notes, but essentially need the forms server on was to do what it was designed to do full stop.

  1. 71  samuel dehuszar allen  | 12/21/2006 9:12:53 PM

    Lots has been said about marketing, but I think this is really an issue of targetting. Because Notes is such a dynamic product, describing it can result in a rather nebulous broad strokes.

    There was a thread on Mary Beth's blog re: policies & "how far should we go?". I'm simplifying, but the general concensus was to strip Notes configuration down till it's no more complex than configuring Thunderbird. Anything heavier gets moved to the Admin client & is controlled via policies.

    Why? Because then mere mortals can dive in.

    David Allen of Getting Things Done fame pops in the domino blogs every now & again and recently said something to the effect of notes being one of the best tools for organizing, & he couldn't quite figure out why it never caught on.

    I think part of that is the aforementioned complexity, but also it literally does not exist outside of the corporate work universe.

    As has been mentioned, MS is in the schools getting them hooked. IBM should be developing a template for homework assignment distrobution & collection.

    Can you imagine what a headline that would make if kids were doing their homework on Notes using Nomad? They could do their homework anywhere, on any machine. They could collect & organize research in nsf's etc.

    If IBM doesn't want to step on the toes of their partners with this type of work, then they should be bidding out these projects so that they are getting done.

    On top of that, IBM could easily do a Notes vs exchange ad campaign a la pc v mac. And in each ad, address ONLY ONE template at a time, so people can focus on hard and fast things Notes can DO!

    If IBM can get Notes to operate as a consumer-level organizer at the same time as it exists as an enterprise app, then people will "get it" because there will be something they can do with it without having to have a job at a 3000+ CAL "small business"

  1. 72  Samuel deHuszar Allen  | 12/21/2006 9:30:02 PM

    I should say, that David Allen wondered why it never caught on as a personal organizer... not in general. It's really is hard to proofread on a Blackberry! :P

    One last quick thought...

    I know IBM has NO interest in doing this... but to piggy-back on my last post, and to follow up on one of Charles's earlier posts, the designer client should come with Notes gratis as it once did. Because then you really do get to have Notes be a playground again, assuming you are not a part of the aforementioned 3000+ business. You also open the door for the tinkerers who may then show their friends this cool dingus they threw together and get some of that wow factor back.

    As I write this, it occurs to me that the crux of this whole discussion is hinged on the fact that Microsoft sells it's software (even if it's designed for businesses) to consumers. Even if a single customer has NO chance of every being able to buy Sharepoint, or any want to do so, Microsoft is targetting them, because some day, in some way, they may have to make a decision that gives Microsoft the sale over a competitor. IBM is always shooting at the big fish. But execs at big companies don't go home and read trade publications and IBM press releases when they come home from work... they try and catch up with everything else in their lives. Microsoft exists elsewhere in their lives. IBM needs to if they want to solve the quandries discussed above.

  1. 73  Craig Wiseman  | 12/21/2006 9:39:41 PM

    I've just been reading this thread, but @70 pretty much covers my thoughts.

    People buy & use a technology product because of what it is, and because of what they believe it will become.

    I'm very comfortable (now) with the fact that IBM is not abandoning Notes and will continue to support it as far as anyone can see. It's equally clear that IBM sees WAS/DB2 as the future home for virtually all significant "app server" development and deployment. And that's a shame.

    Five years ago, Notes/Domino was an amazing and unparalleled combination of integrated database and development, rich client and web capabilities. If you look at all the development IBM has done in this space over the last five years (Notes & Domino, Workplace/WSE, Portal, Workplace Messaging, etc.), it looks like the Notes/Domino have been plugging along at a noticeable pace (except for that poor stepchild, DOMINO non-portal web dev), while IBM has been forging ahead to try and get folks to buy into the WAS/DB2-based future. What's really been happening is that they've been skimping on the only platform they have that's actually hands-down better than Microsoft's and Oracle's, and this has given the competition 5 years time to catch up - and they pretty much have in almost all the important ways.

    The situation is still salvageable, but IBM needs to 'get' that N/D needs to be made a credible platform on it's own. We need to see real Web 2.0 dev & deployment capabilities, with real system-wide CSS support. We need to see integrated document management (repurpose the Domino.Doc ODMA interface?). Things like that.

    I don't know what I think is more likely - that IBM doesn't 'get' that, or that IBM does, and doesn't consider that part of it's brave new world.

  1. 74  David Bell  | 12/22/2006 12:21:48 AM

    @4 - "They would rather eat their own young to push Websphere Portal."

    Not sure how this stacks up, since Notes / Domino and Portal are entirely different beasts that solve entirely different problems. Or put another way, given a business problem, you would not be choosing *between* the two to solve it.

    So I would never expect Notes / Domino to suffer at the hands of Portal, or vice-versa.

  1. 75  Christian Tillmanns http://www.ligonet.ch | 12/22/2006 2:16:03 AM

    Amazing thread. What we can all agree about now, is:

    1. The perception of IBM marketing efforts is completely different inside IBM and in the field. Sorry IBM, the field is normaly right. Dispite all the experts IBM has on that, they still do not get the message. IBMs marketing effort to beat MS must be better in every aspect - and bigger. IBM can not say, MS does that and we don't do anything else. Bong Wrong. IBM has to use a completely diffrent marketing approach.

    2. The perception about WAS and Notes in the field is that IBM wants to replace Notes by WAS (or workplace). Period. I have been on events where they showed us exactly the way how to move. They never said why and the live presentation was a complete failure - the 10 Notes devs present would have build a cluster, created a CRM filled it with data and sold the second Version in the time the IBMs showed us one single form in the portal.

    IBM canibalizes Notes.

    And then IBM speaks about new things in Notes 8, like Activity Explorer. We get all exited about and now we find out slowly by putting the tiny bits of information together - it is WAS technology, it is an extra product, it will not be available local. Very, very disappointing, but it proves our point.

    @ Ed, I remember a thread where you wrote about an exeperience in the UK where the BPs where very agressiv with you and after that you went to the pub with them. The rest of the world thinks the same, but is just a bit more reluctant to show it to you.

    Could it be, that you live in an ivory tower?

    IBM got people in the lower levels who see the problems very, very clear. A lot of good people - but up there in the ivory tower, nobody wants to listen.

    Look at Mary Beth blog about the view icons. It took years that finaly somebody would listen to us, that UI-bugs are real bugs. But for Notes IBM has one last shot to prove that Notes is the best EMAIL-CLIENT out there (all the other goodies comme second). Do something about it. Use the chance that Exchange will require new hardware.

    Otherwise Notes will be dead by 2010.

  1. 76  Thomas Schulte http://www.welovenotesbut.com/blog/ | 12/22/2006 2:40:28 AM

    Craig @73 is right. And Charles Robinson also. And Samuel and ...

    But everything that we said here has been said before on several occasions.

    - The lack of IBM delivered out of the box costs nothing solutions. You remember there was a heavy discussion some time ago.

    - The outdated Templates they give (besides the mail one) to us.

    - IBM shoving WAS down our throats.

    - the nearly impossibile mission to develop solutions that work web and notes the same way with ONE developing approach.

    - Domino and Portal not playing nice together.

    - Getting more complex, so that the argument "you can do it on one server", which is one of the primary keys why notes is still bought by small businesses, does not count anymore.

    - Giving functions to the developers and admins that are not really doing what they should do.

    - the history of IBM making wrong decisions.

    - shouting out loud for the last years that you will have a two lane highways and showing the public that more and more investment ran into WAS.

    - not getting the message through to the IT deciders

    All those and more that i have not mentioned here form the perception of Domino/Notes in the real world and while we know that it still is a god platform for your business and we defend it because it makes a lot of things easy, the guy on the other side of the table keeps telling us: "Yes but i have the following problem and you say you can only solve it with tricks and hacks".

    If they have a Domino/Notes history they are used to us saying hey man thatwill be easy. We will do it that way and it won't cost you a fortune.

    If they have no past connections to Domino they are going to tell us "but google (enter any other theme related to Web or even better Web2.0) can do this better and faster and i do not have to spend so much time (read money) developing that".

    So it is no wonder that those rumours started sometimes and that they seem to live forever. The only thing that could be done to stop this is delivering a top of the notch easy to manage, starting simple but can become real complex, save and well deisgned product that adresses all this issues and the ability to do this not only one year but for the next five to ten years and telling the public constantly speaking with ONE voice to the customer.

    If IBM would do this, then some day in the future a customer who will hear from a competitor that "Notes is dead" will laugh straight into the face of the one who is telling him that and say: "You are kidding man."

  1. 77  Heiko Voigt http://www.sit.de | 12/22/2006 4:13:51 AM

    @Ed - I think we saw some really interesting topics for you IBM guys here - the community is still alive and kicking ! Wow, really a smashing thread ! Are we able to continue this in Orlando at a BoF-Session ? Back to the topic - yes, there is a need to do a lot more for notes and domino, and I think the "rebranding" that is going on right now (abandoning the workplace term and move back to "Lotus") will help, if you (IBM) can clearly shout it out loud at orlando once and for all. Not like today ("... urr, yes, well, if you want to buy WSE you would better consider moving to websphere portal, would you ? But we're not clear in our positioning yet..."). From a marketing standpoint - this is the worst you can possibly do (abandoning a brand) - but, as I said it might help. But please, get to the end with this, so we can move ahead with all the great ideas mentioned in this thread here ! And for all the "Notes-is-all-we-need"-guys - this is only rebranding ! You will STILL need Eclipse, J2EE- and WebSphere-Skills as a Domino-Developer in the future...

  1. 78  Lars Olufsen  | 12/22/2006 4:32:39 AM

    I have mentioned this before at a couple of "Lotusphere comes to you" events in Denmark ...

    Why aren't IBM giving away their e-mail client for free for personal use? Notes is fully capable of handling pop3 from ISPs.

    There's a ton of people out there who would absolutely love to have an email client less prone to virus infections, phishing, spoofs and spam. Add to that a powerful calendering system, searchable document repositories and other standard database templates.

    Synchronize with your PDA, phone or significant other (gadget).

    Heck - a wee bit of work, and there could be a "personal edition" with a set of different templates more relevant to the personal user.

    Perhaps even allow users the designer client for personal, non-profit or OpenNTF use.

    Moving to the Eclipse platform would not make this harder.

    It might even help push the entire concept of composite applications and "Service Oriented Architecture" without ever having to mention SOA.

    Get the concept of "Notes" out into the mainstream. Get some of the geeks on board. Fight the fight in other places than the CIO meeting rooms.

    True, IBM has been more visible. Banner ads, inserts and newspaper ads - it's all good.

    But it's not all about "marketing". It's about "getting it", and IBM aren't helping people "get it".

  1. 79  NeilT  | 12/22/2006 4:44:52 AM

    Having just found the time to get to this thread, I find it an amazing outpouring of frustration and grief bolstered by an unswerving loyalty and tinged with hope that IBM may eventually see the light and understand that the next killer app is sitting right under their noses and just needs the correct application.

    Personally I have more grief and less faith. But then I never really liked the client and from what I can see I’m going to absolutely HATE 8. But that’s personal anyway and just perception.

    I don’t think there is any mileage in going on and on about missed opportunities, aged clients with some whitewash or words V actions, it’s all been said again and again.

    However there is one point that I would like to highlight. I’m kind of with Nathan on the client issue. However I see it a different way.

    I’m with Volker in memory lane, I was replicating Gartner databases in 94 and still have my notes-l thread from 95 but I have Never used Notes for internet mail! Why?

    Well in 3 it was impossible out of the box and in 4.x you really didn’t need that pain in your life. I have been using Microsoft technologies to get my Internet mail since early Windows 95 betas. I’ve never moved away.

    Creating Outlook Express as a companion to Explorer instead of that “utterly dire” netscape mail interface was a masterstroke. Not only did it give every Windows PC user a capable mail client, it gave the impression that OE was Outlook with a simple face. Something which is not true, but as we have discussed at length here perceptions count more than reality.

    So today everybody and their dog has OE, the perception is that even your cat can use it with a few clicks or two of explanation and people come into companies fully compliant with Microsoft terminology. So when they meet Notes the reaction is “What the **** is that!”. You can’t blame them really.

    So IMHO Lotus missed the boat about a decade ago. So what is the answer? Open Source Notes? Much as I understand Nathan’s thinking, there is no way anyone is going to take onboard Notes8 as open source. It’s simply too daunting a task. If users were up to that challenge, then the Linux community would have been able to give away enough Linux desktops to make a real challenge.

    Personally I think that a Notes-Lite is the way to go. Something with no dependency on id files, the memory footprint of Notes 4.6 and containing the same development environment. Giving unparalleled ability and capability for a Free mail client. Note I say free and not open source.

    If you want user perception changed, then give the users something to change it with. A free Domino-lite with 5 user licenses and full collaboration functionality (like the old windows 3.1 server) would also be a huge marketing tool. People could see the benefit of the technology direct in their organisation without any spend at all (except the time). Plus Domino might actually eventually extend into the home. After all homes are becoming more and more networked every year. That Domino recipe database might actually become a reality.

    If you want to change perceptions, where better than right in the home?

    It has been stated here that LS is legacy and that Java/J2EE is the way to go. I dispute that. Almost anyone in the IT sphere and many outside of it, have come across some form of Basic. In fact Microsoft allows you to write VBS direct on the OS to access COM and other interfaces. My first choice for creating small agents to do OS tasks and functions is Domino and I only write them under sufferance.

    A Notes-Lite with @command and LS along with java and js could change the entire conception of the whole Notes product line. Interesting security issue though, giving that king of power to the user community at large……..

    At least you would make the news services etc….. :-) even if it is 12 years late…..

    If Mozilla can reinvent itself with Firefox and thunderbird, why can’t Notes reinvent itself with the free web companion it has always been missing.

    Well it’s a thought.

  1. 80  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/22/2006 6:44:33 AM

    I am closing the discussion on this thread after my last comment, just a few closing thoughts.

    Do I live in an ivory tower? I highly doubt it. I was on the road for over 100,000 flying miles this year, spoke to thousands of customers in dozens of countries. In the three days this thread has been open, I have watched tens of millions of dollars of end-of-year transactions come in to IBM for both existing and new customers buying Lotus Notes and Domino. It actually has been pretty hard for me to reconcile the beating taking place here with the way my business has been performing.

    There are some "favorite" themes expressed here. IBM needs to be in the consumer space. IBM needs more Notes-specific advertising. IBM's website sucks. Give away more templates. Maybe I've been with Lotus for too long, because I've tried to address every one of these over the years vis-a-vis Notes, and there's a point where you do your best in a big company and keep focused on changing the things you can. I am pretty successful at that. Some of these things are never going to happen/change. I personally don't support a few of them, and haven't seen the argument that will persuade me differently.

    Lest the attitude expressed in the last two paragraphs brand me as arrogant or "why bother", let me make it really clear that I, and many of my colleagues, read every comment in this thread. There were a couple of times where I was pinged with comments internally like "is it ever enough?" ( a reference to all the things that have been done to revitalize the Notes/Domino business in 2005 and 2006). But there were also some where we started discussions that could lead to more good things in 2007 and beyond. I blog because of that interaction. This was the first blog entry in a while that prompted a whole bunc of internal e-mails on the topic at hand. That's helpful.

    There are few corporations that are willing to be told flat-out "dude, you f---ed up". I think in 12.5 years at Lotus, I've shown a willingness to hear that -- and act on it -- many many times (and yes, I'd have rathered at times to not have the impetus to do so).

    One thing I'd like to work on, and I'll talk about it in my year-end blog entry in the next few days, is how to get more voices into a discussion like this. There have been something like 2500 unique visitors (probably more because of IP gateway addresses) since this thread started, yet the majority of the comments have come from frequent edbrill.com commenters. Be thinking about that.


Discussion for this entry is now closed.