Bob Sutor: Microsoft press release about ODF - it’s a start, but quit the FUD

July 7 2006

It's almost like sport, isn't it -- the fine art of dissecting spin.  IBM VP Bob Sutor has been getting a lot of practice lately.  At least we should all feel content that we've received sufficient on-the-job training for future careers in politics...

Yesterday, Sutor examined Microsoft's announcement around Open Document Format...
Microsoft press release: "Open XML and ODF were designed to meet very different customer requirements."
Sutor's repsonse: "Well, ODF was designed for people who use spreadsheets, word processors, and presentations. Open XML was designed for people who use Microsoft spreadsheets, word processors and presentations."  Classic.

Sutor makes the key point later in his entry:

This action by Microsoft is one in a long series of positive, momentum building events surrounding the OpenDocument Format and open standards in general. In my opinion, it is explicit recognition that open standards are the most important way of enabling software interoperability.

This all feels like deja vu all over again.  Hopefully it will shake out in favor of the customer.  In the meantime, I'm going to go back to exploring the ODF-compliant word processor, spreadsheet, and presentations tools that are part of the Notes "Hannover" pre-beta...

Link: Bob Sutor: Microsoft press release about ODF - it's a start, but quit the FUD > 		Image:Bob Sutor: Microsoft press release about ODF - it´s a start, but quit the FUD



Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Microsoft  Add/View Comments [28]

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  1. 1  Aleksandr  | 7/7/2006 7:24:37 AM

    Microsoft not supporting ODF is bad.

    Microsoft supporting ODF is also bad.

    ????????????????????????????????????

    So, who is making the FUD here?

    I do agree that customers sometimes care what format is used for storing documents, but I agree even more, that if, application, which saves in these formats stinks, so the format is even smellier!

    OpenOffice.org and Star Office stink for sure!

    If "Hannover" will be the same, then excuse me!

  1. 2  Michael  | 7/7/2006 7:50:50 AM

    @1 For sure Word does not sting...let's talk about the style editing for example lol...

  1. 3  Nathan T. Freeman  | 7/7/2006 7:58:28 AM

    Ah, another helpful comment from Aleksandr!

    I think Sutor's point here is not that MS supporting ODF is bad. That's pretty clear with the quote: "This action by Microsoft is one in a long series of positive, momentum building events surrounding the OpenDocument Format and open standards in general." Note the use of the word "positive."

    The negative aspect is that MS is lying about why they're supporting ODF, and why they're continuing support for their own OpenXML format. Or at least doing a spin job worth of a presidential administration.

    That being said, I'll point out that one of the biggest differences between the ODF and the OpenXML format is that OpenXML is friendlier to stream-based readers. You can open directly to a single page in a large document much easier in that model.

  1. 4  Nathan T. Freeman  | 7/7/2006 8:01:08 AM

    By the way, the UI stuff for Office 2007 is phenomenal. I can offer a list as long as my arm about stuff where Microsoft sucks, but in the case of UI presentation for O2007, they're doing some brilliant work. I'm not sure it's going to matter, since I can't figure out why it's important to have the kind of capabilities that those tools offer you. But they're doing a great job of showing them to you!

    More on that here: { Link }

  1. 5  Roland Reddekop http://www.blackphoto.com | 7/7/2006 8:18:03 AM

    Ed, A while back I downloaded a trial of IBM's Productivity Tools and noticed a useful app called 'planner'. While its not exactly an "MS Project" killer, it looks like a nice lite application that would be useful for mini projects. I don't see an OpenOffice equivalent. Lotus Notes doesn't have native Gantt charting abilities, so it fills a functional gap. I wonder why this app didn't make the Hannover cut?

    (maybe its a surprise bonus that will be pulled out just pre-release...that'd be nice.)

  1. 6  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 7/7/2006 8:40:58 AM

    @1 - Word is my 4th choice word processor after the IBM Productivity tool, OpenOffice Writer and Lotus Word Pro. For all it's good points, Word's style management is awful, clumsy, complex, and many other negative adjectives. Saying OpenOffice stinks... well, the comment isn't worth responding to.

    @4 - I sorta like the marriage of tool bars and menus in Office 2007. But here's a thought... one of the great things about Windows is the menus allowed users to skip from one app to another and remain comfortable. Microsoft have just turned that idea on it's head... they've started down a path to destroy a 'standard' that they created.

  1. 7  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 7/7/2006 8:54:30 AM

    @1 - Microsoft is engaging in the same sort of tawdry gamesmanship that IBM used to do so well (ironically). First, they reject the idea of an XML based file format as too slow, then they are forced to admit that maybe it isn't too slow but want to force their own standard that seems to have the special benefit of being easy to create from MS Office but little else to recommend it, and now they are "supporting" ODF by supporting a plug in with a lousy interface rather than supporting the one that has been developed already with a good interface.

    It isn't even that I blame Microsoft, just that one should look at what they are doing with a healthy dose of objectivity. I think they will increasingly be forced to accept ODF as a standard, but they don't have to like it, and seem to want to delay it as much as possible.

    As for MS Word vs. OpenOffice.org Writer, both seem quite capable. Word seems to have a more mature sense of what people want in menus, even if they do sometimes seem to be ignoring their own standard. OpenOffice seems to have a better sense of how to use styles and easier table management. Word seems to do a bit better with getting to the attributes you care about (trying to set table cell borders in OpenOffice.org Writer points out how much they need a few generations of users to whack things into shape. So, both work quite well, but with quirks. One fortunate thing for the integrated apps in Hannover is that the OpenOffice was of getting to properties seems closer to the Notes way than the MS Word way does, which will help reduce training.

  1. 8  Brian Green  | 7/7/2006 9:38:27 AM

    To quote Jack Dausman, "ODF is Tomorrow's HTML"

    { Link }

  1. 9  David Schaffer bloginprogress.us | 7/7/2006 9:50:37 AM

    @7 - I've been using OpenOffice for a few weeks and agree, it's pretty much as capable as MS Office but needs some UI seasoning. The compatability with Office formats is so good that I would be surprised if many folks are using ODF; I suspect most are still saving in MS format.

    @6 - Word Pro? I liked WordPerfect 5.1 but I don't use it anymore. My recollection is that between MS Word, WordPerfect and Word Pro that Word Pro was definitely an acquired taste.

    SmartSuite has regained my attention however because Open Office Calc won't handle 123 files so I had to re-install 123 since Notes still uses only that format to import and export to views!

  1. 10  Brian Green  | 7/7/2006 10:26:55 AM

    It would be interesting if: The email editor in "Hannover" was IBM's ODF word processor, and the new standard for sending email was ODF, instead of MIME or HTML. Web/Email 2.0 anyone? :)

  1. 11  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 7/7/2006 10:38:11 AM

    @10 - Well, it might be possible to use ODF as a MIME part, but actual ODF e-mail would require the rest of the world to change as well. On the other hand, one of the good things about MIME is the ability to have alternative parts, so you could have an ODF part AND an HTML or plain text part, and if the recipient understood ODF, it would use that, and if not, it would use HTML. That is an important part of the way MIME works, and would allow a gradual adoption of something like ODF.

    Of course, ODF is also a pib when it comes to size, so for example this comment takes about 765 bytes as plain text, and about 1390 bytes as HTML, but about 9382 bytes when saved through OpenOffice Writer, and 12874 bytes when converted to Base64 encoding which MIME requires. Ugh!

  1. 12  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 7/7/2006 10:44:52 AM

    Oh yes, I should point out for perspective that saving the same comment (#11) in Microsoft Word's binary format comes in at a whopping 20480 bytes. There is a reason why both ODF and MS Open XML are stored in zipped format.

  1. 13  Esther http://esthermstrom.blogspot.com | 7/7/2006 10:51:39 AM

    @9 - You don't actually have to install 123 to work with Notes view import/export. You can open 123 files in Excel, and also save Excel files as 123 (.wk3 or .wk4) format in Excel. I'm NOT an MS fan by any means, but Office is what we have here, so we use it.

  1. 14  Steve Castledine http://www.stevecastledine.com | 7/7/2006 11:57:22 AM

    Testing Comments please ignore

  1. 15  Charles Robinson  | 7/7/2006 1:49:05 PM

    @6 - I hear ya on the "where did X function go" in Office 2007. The UI is certainly interesting and shakes things up, but I feel much less productive in O2K7 because I'm constantly having to dig to find what I need.

    @10 - What would sending e-mail as ODF accomplish? I'm not

    clear on the problem you're trying to solve.

  1. 16  David Schaffer http://bloginprogress.us | 7/7/2006 2:04:48 PM

    @13 - Esther. Excel works fine. Understood. I was commenting on a little-recognized side effect of switching from MS Office to Open Office which affects Notes users. In this one regard, at least, OO Calc is not a full substitute for Excel.

    I assume Hanover will export to ODF?

  1. 17  Paul Gagnon  | 7/7/2006 2:18:22 PM

    @5 - Yes indeed, a programmable Gantt chart embedded element. Wouldn't that be super-slick to have in Domino Designer and Notes? (without having to go to a 3rd party)

    I'll have to talk that one up with someone at Lotuspere 2007. ;) /offtopic

    I can't wait to try those productivity tools Ed. I assume that Domino.Doc will integrate tightly with these new tools?

    Common Hannover Public Beta!

  1. 18  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/7/2006 2:19:49 PM

    @16 - not "export to ODF", save as ODF.

    @5/17 - not sure current status of the project mgmt tool. I'll have to ask.

    @17 "tightly" integrate with Domino.Doc? Not sure we'll get there at "Hannover dot zero" but there is definitely a plan...

  1. 19  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/7/2006 5:10:42 PM

    I was in a press briefing at Lotusphere (with Art) where I was told that the productivity apps would be made available as a separate download. Has this happened?

  1. 20  Andrew Price http://www.healthspace.ca | 7/7/2006 6:15:27 PM

    @0: "In the meantime, I'm going to go back to exploring the ODF-compliant word processor, spreadsheet, and presentations tools that are part of the Notes "Hannover" pre-beta..."

    Stop teasing, you rat. ;)

    btw: Are you able to explain how the ODF is expressed in Hannover? Is it stored as XML in a Notes db, or zipped and attached or what?

    Thx

    Andy

  1. 21  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/7/2006 6:24:48 PM

    @19 We've done that for IBM internally, but I do not know of a current plan to productize the productivity apps separately. What would be the objective?

    @20 - Yeah, I need to start blogging about "Hannover". Honestly one thing holding me back is that the version number is in all the screens, and I don't want to be the one to leak it. Also, the images at this point would be a bit rough, though the new calendar UI is really impressive. I will catch up next week and beyond.

    ODF is expressed in "Hannover" as an attachment at .0...could be different in the future.

  1. 22  Mark Hughes  | 7/7/2006 6:57:07 PM

    @15 @10

    I think he is curious about the rich text editor in Hannover

    will it have inline spell check ... things like that

  1. 23  Andrew Price http://www.healthspace.ca | 7/8/2006 12:34:10 AM

    @21: "Yeah, I need to start blogging about "Hannover". Honestly one thing holding me back is that the version number is in all the screens, and I don't want to be the one to leak it."

    oic. The plot thickens. May we deduce that it is not 8.0 then? hmm? Send the screenies to me, I'll happily blur out the version number for you ;)

    "ODF is expressed in "Hannover" as an attachment at .0...could be different in the future."

    Too bad; that's probably sub-optimal. Please mark me down as voting for something plainer. The main issue I have with ODF in general is that they zip a bunch of files together to make the ODF (a puzzling choice really since XML is perfect for not having to split stuff into separate files in the first place) which makes the contents less accessible to cunning xml transformations, searches, indexing etc., all of which could be a big win for the (excellent) XML tools already in Notes, and in the future, Viper.

    Attachments are pretty grungy to deal with at the best of times since transferring them to a temporary filesystem for interaction (such as with the OOo tools) is error prone and adds a bunch of dependancies on other people's $oftware that do not need to be there (OSes/security/cleanup/temp dirs/version confusion... blah blah blah). Plain XML streamed into memory from accessible fields would likely be more elegant imho. If you want to make a big impact with the OOo integration I think it is worth choosing an optimal solution from the get-go, but I understand your devs are under a lot of deadline pressure. Maybe some of the OOo folks could help out. This is an issue I explored a few years ago with them, though I never got very far.

    :)

  1. 24  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/8/2006 9:01:53 AM

    "I don't want to be the one to leak it"

    Say the word, and I do it for you. :-) { Link }

  1. 25  Geoff Clarke http://www.clarkehouse.info | 7/9/2006 7:00:03 AM

    Ed,

    @17 & @18 and dom.doc

    tell us about the plan

    my work is about to can dom.doc because we cant see the future

  1. 26  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/9/2006 8:15:05 AM

    For various reasons, I can't go into some of that on the blog...but e-mail me ed_brill at us.ibm.com and we'll figure out a way to discuss.

  1. 27  purvin  | 12/8/2006 3:30:23 AM

    Will Hannover have "save to .doc" (/ .xls /.ppt) for its productivity tools?

  1. 28  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 12/8/2006 7:36:25 AM

    Yes (PPT/XLS/DOC). See my newest posting for details.