Gregg Eldred: GMail was down. If you run Domino, "down" may be unusual

September 4 2009

Exactly...

On September 2, Wired had an article that finished with this quote:
Gmail's last major outage was in May, and it had a number of outages in 2008. But Google says its service is still far more reliable than corporate networks, many of which run Microsoft Exchange servers.
There are those that will say that no e-mail system can have 100% uptime, and yet, I can point to several companies that can not only say that, they can prove it. I am certain that I am not alone in saying that in some Domino shops, e-mail service is always available. Management has made the decision that e-mail is crucial to their business and have made the necessary decisions to guarantee that their employees will not lose productivity from a lack of service.

"Never down" or "100% uptime." It may seem unusual, but it is certainly possible.
Link: Gregg Eldred: GMail was down. If you run Domino, "down" may be unusual >

Ed Brill | Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Notes and Domino 8.5  Add/View Comments [39]

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  1. 1  David Hablewitz  | 9/4/2009 12:59:54 PM

    I can attest to that. I went 3 full years with 100% availability thanks to a cluster (MTBF.nsf to prove that) and when I throw in the various non-Notes components, like power grid, LAN, WAN, etc, it was under 4 hours of unplanned outages during that same period.

  1. 2  Karlo  | 9/4/2009 3:02:23 PM

    The company I work for, so far, three years and counting.

  1. 3  tom oneil  | 9/4/2009 3:28:07 PM

    I think it's great that we can champion Lotus and proclaim 100% uptime... but really... it's just email.

    We had a data center down at one of my previous companies and the only the that was working was email. Let's just say nothing got done that day. It was practically declared a disaster.

    Also, most of our 100% claims are because of the great clustering done by the Notes Client. I wonder if the claims would be a little less than 100% if we were talking about a 100% iNotes shop.

    Lotus should stick to the benefits of the robust client than poke fun at "email in the cloud." Because, let's not forget... Gmail's hosting a lot more email accounts than LotusLive. Let's see LotusLive get the same customer count and go 100% for uptime.

  1. 4  Jim Casale http://www.jimcasale.net | 9/4/2009 4:55:46 PM

    No one said LotusLive had 100% uptime. No cloud service can say that as the cloud depends on many uncontrollable things such as the Internet.

    What is being said (and anyone can correct me if I am missing something here) is that on premises Lotus Notes/Domino is the closest thing to 100% uptime (and in fact does have 100% uptime at customer sites as mentioned above).

  1. 5  Gavin Bollard http://dominogavin.blogspot.com | 9/4/2009 10:24:38 PM

    To be fair, it was the infrastructure which let Google down, not the product. That very same thing has happened to me on Lotus.

  1. 6  Antoine Leboyer http://www.gsx.net | 9/5/2009 2:02:44 AM

    Ed,

    Two quick comments: one, we at GSX respectfully claim some of the credits for a large number of Domino shops running with perfect uptime …

    Second and more importantly, one of the key challenges for It organizations to provide an environment where collaboration applications are up and running is to ensure that the right service indicators are identified and that they translate into the right system indicators.

    Too often, we encounter admins that are using their IT-metrics to run their systems, not realizing that Domino admins have different and specific requirements than IT-Ops admins. These ones have graphs showing that key indicators are positive but cannot relate to how service is delivered to end-users.

    This is what you hear when you are told that servers are 99.999% up so the conclusion is that applications running on these servers are at the same percentage. There are no measurements allowing to understand end-user experience nor how to analyze what is happening in depth.

    This still happens at many companies, including some of the largest and most prestigious ones and one where I witnessed this is actually … IBM internal itself.

  1. 7  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/5/2009 7:58:21 AM

    The GMail front-end was unavailable—you could still download your mail via POP3 / IMAP as normal (which is what I usually do). So the real comparison for this outage should be between the GMail website (i.e. the "client") and Lotus Notes, rather than between the Google mail system and Domino.

    But I digress… I simply don't understand the constant stabs at cloud services from the yellow bubble. After all, what are LotusLive and Lotus Connections all about, if not "the cloud"?

  1. 8  Flemming Riis  | 9/5/2009 9:42:44 AM

    -But I digress… I simply don't understand the constant stabs at cloud services from the yellow bubble. After all, what are LotusLive and Lotus Connections all about, if not "the cloud"?

    the odds of Google taking away revenue from a small IBM partner is real so thats proberly the main reason for the jabs, so its a easy target.

    when lotuslive starts to do the same in high numbers the attack vector will shift.

  1. 9  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/5/2009 11:09:38 AM

    @7 Ben, do you honestly believe the users Google has been targeting know WTF is POP3 or IMAP?

  1. 10  Jim Casale http://www.jimcasale.net | 9/5/2009 12:19:56 PM

    @5 It was Google's infrastructure that failed after Google made changes to that infrastructure. Anyway you look at it it was a Google outage.

  1. 11  Jim Casale http://www.jimcasale.net | 9/5/2009 12:22:13 PM

    @5 It was Google's infrastructure that failed after Google made changes to that infrastructure. Anyway you look at it it was a Google outage.

  1. 12  tom oneil  | 9/5/2009 2:33:56 PM

    @9 OK... Gmail was still available on my Blackberry. Maybe IMAP and POP3 are not the terms to use these days.

    I'm with the people who think that we don't need to beat our drums everytime Google Apps has an outage.

    Lotus is still the red-headed step-child of email. They rolled out the fancy R8 client and people were still "meh."

    I haven't said this for a while but Lotus is not going to win customers with 100% uptime. They're hopefully going to win big over the next year because Lotus Knows everything. It can do (and know?) wonderful things.

    "Lotus Knows not to keep its head in the clouds" :-)

  1. 13  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/6/2009 3:46:39 AM

    @9 Some yes. Why, do you think we have some kind of rarified knowledge?

    I use Google Apps for Domains, the paid-for version of GMail if you like. And I know what IMAP, POP3 and a variety of other acronyms mean.

    Yellow bubblers patronise at their peril.

  1. 14  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/6/2009 5:59:37 AM

    @13 Guess what, you're not Google's target.

  1. 15  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/6/2009 6:06:12 AM

    Well actually, people like me, and our clients *are* Google's target. I'm talking about businesses, not personal GMail usage. All GMail does is get Google some mind-share. Google Apps comprise the migration targets.

  1. 16  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/6/2009 7:44:01 AM

    I never mentioned personal usage or GMail Ben. Google's is telling businesses to move and get rid of their infrastructure and IT staff. What you're suggesting is that when the GMail front-end is unavailable the bean counter will say "oh, that's OK, it's just the front end. I'll install an email client and use POP3/IMAP". Is that it?

  1. 17  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/6/2009 3:25:18 PM

    "Google's is telling businesses to move and get rid of their infrastructure and IT staff"

    Yes that'r right. And businesses will do that of course, because Google told them to.

  1. 18  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/6/2009 5:21:36 PM

    How funny is that! You just proved my point again, you're not Google's target :)

  1. 19  tom oneil  | 9/6/2009 7:52:35 PM

    Uh... considering Google has three tiers for Google Apps. I would say EVERYBODY is their target.

    Consider how easy it is for John Q Public to sign up and use their product... Google doesn't need to target people they just stumble into it.

    Now compare that to the process of downloading IBM's free Lotus Symphony. I can't tell you how many times I've cussed at that IBM id screen. Not just for Symphony but other downloads too.

  1. 20  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/7/2009 8:49:28 AM

    @18 You are missing Ben's point.

    Small business are going to be the sweet spot of cloud computing, at least for the first few years. Yes there are press releases about huge migrations to the cloud, but the momentum (and money) will be in the 1-100 person companies. Considering the relatively cheap cost of cloud computing (yet to be confirmed by a few years in real business) I think small business would stand for some outages, albeit irritating.

  1. 21  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/7/2009 10:23:26 AM

    @20 Paul, I don't think I am.

    Ben is not saying "small business would stand for some outages", what he is saying is when the front-end is unavailable they will install email clients and configure POP3/IMAP.

  1. 22  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/7/2009 10:32:30 AM

    @21 Wrong.

  1. 23  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/7/2009 10:35:11 AM

    Vitor - Ben has a good point made above. Its a general point and not meant to offend or annoy anyone. He (and you) are good guys. Re read what he said - I think you picked it up wrong.

  1. 24  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/7/2009 10:46:26 AM

    I think both Ben and Vitor are right. Historically, Google has been focused on the small businesses (who didn't care about the 'beta' label, for example). Of late, with #gonegoogle etc., they are trying to show that large enterprises should consider switching to Google. They are no longer content with small, they want the big fish. And they've landed a few, who of course could have had better uptime in premises-based Notes/Domino than they apparently are experiencing in the cloud. Thus, Vitor's point that Google is aiming high and is going to get knocked along the way.

  1. 25  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/7/2009 11:08:28 AM

    @23 Paul, I'm sorry. I've re read but I must be slow and picked it wrong, can you explain, please? :)

    "The GMail front-end was unavailable—you could still download your mail via POP3 / IMAP as normal (which is what I usually do)"

    So, unless he means that business users have email clients already installed just in case the gmail front-end is unavailable they will have to install them.

    Ben's is not the usual business user, Google is not pushing business users to use POP3/IMAP, they're pushing for all web. Mail, docs, the whole thing.

    @24 Ed, I didn't even get that far, I'm just talking about small businesses like Ben's.

  1. 26  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/7/2009 11:47:38 AM

    @ 24 - fair point well made

    @25. I never once referred to you as slow or stupid and even with a smiley I take offence to that.

    A bean counter who finds a cheap solution in a small business (i.e. small company) will not mind telling his users to switch to imap/pop in the case of prolonged downtime. Yes, it would be a pain in the arse but he doesnt care as its cheap on his books.

  1. 27  bob balaban http://bobzblog.com | 9/7/2009 12:24:49 PM

    @24, THANK YOU Ed, for saying "premises-based" and not..you know...

    :-)

  1. 28  bob balaban http://bobzblog.com | 9/7/2009 12:27:54 PM

    @24 - A question - have you (or has anyone) looked at the relative vulnerabilities of cloud-based email vs. on-premises to DOS and other attacks? Might be interesting.

  1. 29  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/7/2009 1:35:43 PM

    @26 Of course you didn't, I did. You shouldn't take offense.

    It's no pain according to Ben. I'd love to hear a recording of the conversation when the bean counter calls Google support and they tell him about imap/pop and client installs.

    You used the word 'switch' like it's a checkbox on a settings page. That is my issue. Not that it's better or worse or cheaper.

  1. 30  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/7/2009 2:51:20 PM

    "It's no pain according to Ben"

    Please stop putting words in my mouth. But if you insist, here's how you configure a modern mail client (e.g. Mail.app) to work with Gmail:

    1. Create "New Account"

    2. Key in your GMail log-in name & password

    3. Err... there is no step 3

    I know plenty of "non-IT" people who can do this.

    But this is all moot, because it's not the central point for discussion. You're just picking on one point again and again for some reason.

    Now, everyone and their aunt can pick on GMail / whatever the cloud service du jour is. Fact is, they're here and they're going to stay. You could sell IBM and IBM only until you die if that's what you want as a partner / reseller, but not even IBM do that. I prefer to flex solutions to client needs rather than forcing some kind of yellow dogma no matter what.

    As a (very) small business owner, I choose to use Google Apps, and have used it for two years with absolutely no complaint whatsoever. In all that time I have been affected by one outage which lasted approx. 45 minutes, and I honestly didn't care -- I don't run my business from my inbox. Running a Domino box for my email would be insane. But that's just me (and by all accounts a lot of other small businesses too. Just sayin').

    Now of course, Big Corp plc will quite likely take an entirely different view, and choose to run Exchange / Domino in-house, with stringent up-time requirements. Good for them. I'm just saying that that approach is not for everyone, and that bashing the "competition" over these piddling outages does no favours to the Yellow Bleeders intent on said bashing. I'm reading way too many posts decrying Google on PL, rather than posts about the latest greatest features of Domino and company...

    And that's tedious.

  1. 31  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 9/7/2009 3:02:37 PM

    In summary: { Link }

  1. 32  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/7/2009 3:08:54 PM

    Ben, you made it the central point when you *dismissed* the outage by saying that was nothing and people should just switch to using pop/imap like you do.

    I'm not picking on Gmail, Lotus or you. I use Gmail, Lotus and I respect you. And guess what, I'm a customer I don't partner or resell anything. I think you're the one with an anti-yellow dogma here.

    I agree with pretty much all you said on your last comment. I didn't defend Lotus or pick on Gmail, my point is how you dismissed the outage making it sound it's just like changing a checkbox.

    BTW step 3 is install the damn mail client! :)

  1. 33  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 9/7/2009 4:36:01 PM

    "I think you're the one with an anti-yellow dogma here."

    OK. Whatever.

    "you *dismissed* the outage by saying that was nothing"

    Well, it *was* nothing.

  1. 34  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 9/7/2009 4:50:29 PM

    These are Google's words "today's outage was a Big Deal", but I guess you own the truth. Enough.

  1. 35  Kevin Mort http://www.theglobalmind.com | 9/7/2009 6:18:10 PM

    @7 Ben I think you'd see the same reaction from any community with a premise system who's being attacked by the cloud service supporters telling customers they're essentially stupid for not going cloud or won't be competitive if they run on-premise, or that cloud is inherently more available than on-premise.

    Goes both ways.

  1. 36  Frédéric Fanchamps  | 9/8/2009 6:24:48 AM

    <<Ben, do you honestly believe the users Google has been targeting know WTF is POP3 or IMAP?>>

    ? In Belgium everybody having a internet connection receives some params (4: user/password/pop server/stmp server) from the provider, they enter these params in outlook express to get mails, so yes POP3 and co works for everybody, even if you don't know what it is.

  1. 37  Kerr  | 9/8/2009 6:31:16 AM

    oh dear, Bob's not going to be happy with Kevin ;) What's wrong with "in-house"?