Ed Brill

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1. 1  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/18/2007 3:22:15 PM

   I don't quite understand why Symphony or Microsoft Office is needed anymore. OpenOffice 2.1 has everything, and it's much better than "concurrent" office suites. I don't also quite understand why Notes 8 is not using the real latest release of OpenOffice, all that is needed is to use the "edit" option in attachments (as long as the attachments are saved back to the Notes Document of course).

1. 2  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/18/2007 3:23:01 PM

   Oh, now it's OpenOffice 2.3 :)

1. 3  David Gursky  | 9/18/2007 3:57:54 PM

   What Kool-Aid is Lazar drinking? "It will be very difficult to get enterprises to pay of Office when they can use Symphony for free..."???? There's the transition cost of training people to use Symphony and the cost for an annual support contract. Them there is also the mindspace issue. People are already comfortably using MS Office. You can only successfully move them out of the comfort zone with an incredibly significant improvement in the product. Open Office, even Open Office embedded into Notes, is good, but no significant number of enterprises will dump Microsoft Office for this alone.

1. 4  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/18/2007 4:07:33 PM

   Yes they will, the problem in most enterprises is just the lack of a clear IT commandant who will say what software the enterprise uses now. Users will have no problems switching without any training from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice, it's totally the same environment, just much clearer and more convenient.

1. 5  Keith Brooks http://lotustech.blogspot.com | 9/18/2007 4:13:19 PM

   Both of these clips/blogs are interesting, basically denying the existence of openoffice(and similar products) which have been around for years, and in truth not that much different than is now Symphony(or at least to the average joe).

   Does IBM's enhancement/branding of openoffice mean something?

   Remember e-suite another promising soluton?

   For Ed, what is the thought behind embedding symphony in R8 and then putting it out for free and telling us it is beta?!

   So my R8 standard is a beta client too? The Symphony site claims it is the same tools in the R8 client as download.

   So why not lighten the Standard client by takin this out? I know its an option to install.

   What happens if someone tries to install Symphony would they have 2 versions running or installed?

1. 6  David Gursky  | 9/18/2007 4:32:59 PM

   Sorry Mike -- IT is a service and does not levy requirements on users. The enterprise drives IT, not the other way around, and mindspace remains INCREDIBLY important. If the President or CEO of the company doesn't like the product, doesn't matter how cool the geeks of the world find it.

1. 7  Mark Hughes  | 9/18/2007 5:06:55 PM

   Beta means no support and things like that ala google mail

1. 8  David Bell  | 9/18/2007 5:30:17 PM

   @1 - I read recently that it is because the latest OO is distributed under the GPL licensing scheme (which original releases were not), which would mean for IBM to distribute it integrated with Notes 8, they would have to make Notes source code available under GPL. That is a big issue.

1. 9  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/18/2007 5:36:01 PM

   @8: You are missing the detail that Notes 8 Java still needs Notes 8 C++ to run (=nlnotes.exe), so IBM would just need to publish the Java code, and not the real Notes C++ code.

   Besides, I don't think any worthy developer would want to get involved with Java :P I'm taking my C++ STL advanced course soon, and I must say C++ STL is pretty damn powerful and amazing, and of course cross-platform.

1. 10  Dan Sickles  | 9/18/2007 6:04:43 PM

   @9 - Many worthy developers don't want to be involved with c++ either.

   @1 - IBM has to sell the value of the Expeditor container under Symphony. You can develop the same kind of plugins that you can for Notes 8 etc... Otherwise the incremental over OO and MS Office will not amount to much.

1. 11  Deleted  | 9/18/2007 6:16:25 PM

   Deleted - no anonymous comments allowed.

1. 12  Adam Brown http://www.isw.com.au/brownblog | 9/18/2007 6:47:03 PM

   Not that I am an eclipse developer but based on my limited knowledge does this mean that 3rd parties could build Eclipse plugins for Lotus Symphony?

   If this is the case then this is a huge strength of the product. If you look at Mozilla Firefox one of the things that has encouraged its uptake was the ability for third parties to easily built extensions. There are thousands of extensions now and it makes the product so much better that IE.

   There needs to be a ground swell to get this going but if developers out there start to enhance Symphony with their own plugins then any other provider of productivity tools is surely going to struggle to keep up! I for one will be very interested to see the uptake.

   @3 I know of a couple of large organisations in Australia that have resisted upgrading MS Office for many years. Even a number of Govt Departments have held off. They are very keen on the Productivity Apps (and now Symphony I guess) as for their users upgrading from the likes of Office 97 to Lotus Symphony would mean many new features and a much nicer user experience. So the result is that they are not going to get the same user resistence that you are suggesting.

   The other key strength of course is the whole ODF arguement. Even CEO's or Presidents of companies can understand the need and in many instances regulatory requirements to adopt open standards for documents.

1. 13  Andrew Pollack http://www.thenorth.com/apblog | 9/18/2007 7:50:00 PM

   You're not going to see a major movement from MS Office to Symphony or any other version of Open Office this year. What it does do, it take Open Office right to the threshold of being a major threat at just the moment that IBM's collaboration platform is ready to prove itself on the linux platform, and end users are finally starting to see some success with ubuntu style distributions.

   Microsoft's market position is a powerful because its fungible. If there's just one piece you really need to have, you're likely to find enough reasons to go with the rest of them. There are competitors to each piece, but so far nothing that can pry those plates loose from all sides at once. IBM putting real force and professional quality QA and funding behind Open Office is like sliding that pry bar in on a side that was previously thought too tight to be vulnerable.

1. 14  Irwin Lazar http://www.irwinlazar.com/ | 9/18/2007 9:07:20 PM

   Ed, thanks for the link.

   To answer some of the other comments. From what we've seen in our research, enterprises are often reluctant to embrace open source applications because of lack of "enterprise class" support options (and we've asked folks about a number of collaboration tools as well as open source VOIP platforms like Asterisk).

   I think having IBM behind a package like Symphony gives it more credibility in the enterprise market place than OpenOffice.

   Now, when will we have Symphony for Mac? :-)

1. 15  David Gursky  | 9/18/2007 9:21:14 PM

   @10: I can think of a few other things at least two worthy developers don't want to be involved with. [Sorry folks, inside joke...]

   There is a whole different perspective to this discussion that we've not really touched upon. Does anyone REALLY believe Microsoft will not respond aggressively if they see their share of the Office Suite market erode tangibly?

1. 16  Andrew Pollack http://www.thenorth.com/apblog | 9/18/2007 9:34:46 PM

   @15 -- Of course Microsoft will respond aggressively. They have already. Microsoft Office 2007 represents the first time they've gone back and re-thought the UI in what, a dozen years? What drove that whole graphical approach? Its REALLY hard to duplicate with present open source technologies, that's what. Having updated my desktop but not yet laptop, my first thought was "Wow, this is fantastic...." and my second, third, fourth, fifth....have been "Crap, where did hide the..."

   Microsoft's response to competition goes two ways. Either they come out with some really incredible usability enhancements, or they go with some completely wacked out licensing, security, and interoperability model.

   Either way, this move will push them hard.

1. 17  David Gursky  | 9/18/2007 9:48:41 PM

   @15: I'm not sure I'd call Office 07 a response, as it preceeded Symphony, but that's picking nits.

   Regardless, I think Google Apps represent a far more serious threat to the dominance of Office then Symphony. It's hip (being from Google) and offers a real value add to the IT side (no more upgrading several thousand workstations). If Google can provide a workable Raven-like capability, then it will have EXTREMELY serious mojo!

1. 18  Andrew Pollack http://www.thenorth.com/apblog | 9/18/2007 10:01:16 PM

   @17 - Office 2007 is a direct and obvious response to Open Office. A good competitive move in that light in fact. Its like in chess when you castle. You're changing the game in a pretty big way all at once. I see IBM's move here in a similar way. It's not as simple as swapping places with a Rook and a King. Its more like someone surprising you by sneaking a pawn across the whole field and suddenly there's a new queen. I don't play chess so the whole queen thing could be bullshit, but you get the point.

1. 19  Henry Ferlauto http://www.geniusinside.com | 9/18/2007 11:29:44 PM

   @14 - According to an article in CNET ({ Link } "Support for Apple's Mac OS computers is planned."

   I would venture a guess that when Notes 8.0.1 is ready with Mac support, so will Symphony since the bulk of the Symphony code comes from Notes.

   Ed - Nice to see you again, as always. Two questions for you: With the name Symphony back in play:

   (1) Will IBM kill the name "Productivity Applications" and say Notes comes with integrated Symphony" (or something to that effect? Having two brand names for one "product" seems like a branding nightmare waiting to happen.

   (2) In the name of closure, will Lotus ever "retire" the SmartSuite brand? It's like someone wants to make the (official) demise of OS/2 look short.

1. 20  Tonyo  | 9/19/2007 12:13:30 AM

   what I'm trying to figure out is - why would a customer use an older version of openoffice ( and have to wait for IBM to produce bug fixes etc) when they can get the latest from openoffice.org?

   I've installed the beta and it looks like Notes 8 without the Notes piece..so... tabs maybe? is that the entire value prop?

1. 21  Ian Scott  | 9/19/2007 2:43:17 AM

   @20 - No. That's not the entire value proposition. Obviously.

1. 22  Axel  | 9/19/2007 5:28:52 AM

   GPL Open Office: I can't imagine that IBM sends 35 developers in a GPL OpenSource project without having some backdoor to use that stuff (for example by negotiation with Sun). Of course this is pure speculation as nobody who knows would tell me.

   I hope for new opportunities by combining the wide open integration capabilities of Eclipse, the collaborative capabilities of Domino and the Rich Interface capabilities of Open Office. Innovation is often made possible not by making an existing element better, but more by combining elements with different strengths. Around 2000 lots of Notes-Office integration was developed using OLE. And I see huge rooms for improvement to build a easier to use, more stable and generally better integration platform.

   First time of my life of a Domino developer that I don't understand the nay-sayers.

1. 23  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 9/19/2007 7:42:47 AM

   @20 - Because IBM addressed a number of internationalization and accessibility issues forked from the 1.x code. That stuff will now be folded into 2.x of OOo.

   IBM's dedicating a staff to write code for OOo, and has announced a free and open platform that's an extension of OOo that they're giving away.

   OOo 2.x is licensed under the LGPL, which, while NOT requiring that any commercial extension of the code be released under the GPL, DOES require that it be released in some free, open source fashion. So now we have Symphony, which is free and open source, and is currently OO 1.x code. Since it's free and open, it can now be upgraded to OOo 2.x, and not violate the LGPL. Yet Symphony itself can be made available under say, the Eclipse OSI license.

   Here's the clever bit: now that we have Symphony as an Eclipse-licensed product, IBM can bundle the productivity suite with ANY OTHER PRODUCT SET THEY WANT. Having that product in between means that they comply with the LGPL requirements (remember, the LESSER GPL isn't viral -- this is exactly the sort of thing it's supposed to achieve) without having to compromise rights in any other product.

   It's really rather brilliant. Notes 8.x will "include Lotus Symphony." Expeditor will include Symphony. Heck, Sametime 8.0 might include Symphony. RATIONAL ROSE might include Symphony. Why not? If you're client code is already in Eclipse, and you're giving the product away anyway, you might as well bundle it every chance you get. It's what Microsoft did. Having Symphony as a free, open, standalone offering means that there's a bridge for the licensing between OOo 2.x and any closed-source commercial product IBM wants to build.

   Genius, guys. Eisenhower would be impressed.

1. 24  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 9/19/2007 8:00:47 AM

   Here's an interesting article from Computerworld: Can IBM save OpenOffice.org from itself? { Link } . It includes a lot of links to other sources sprinkled throughout that helps pull this all together (or at least it did for me).

   @14 - Fungible. I learned a new word! :-)

1. 25  Karen Demerly  | 9/19/2007 9:08:16 AM

   Another commentary (I'm ambivalent, so this is just sharing, not supporting or denouncing)...

   { Link }

1. 26  Kevin Mort  | 9/19/2007 9:34:48 AM

   This is all excellent stuff. Thanks for the video link Ed, I missed this yesterday.

   "Mr. Softie" Oh I just love that.

1. 27  Erik Brooks  | 9/19/2007 11:24:34 AM

   @23 - Yup, that's the genius here. And it answers my question from last week. :-)

   "Ok, here's OOo 3.0. It just happens to have LotusScript hooks into everything."

   Notes 9 Installer : "Hey, you've got OOo 3.0! Let's party."

   - or maybe better yet -

   "Notes 9 ships with Symphony 3.x. Want to install that too and party?"

   Absolutely fantastic.

1. 28  Mike McGarel http://mcgarelgramming.dominodeveloper.net | 9/19/2007 2:03:30 PM

   Will Lotus Symphony be the name of the band that plays at Lotusphere? :)

1. 29  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/19/2007 2:57:39 PM

   Hmm, "Lotus Symphony Orchestra" sounds like the win!

1. 30  Dan Sickles  | 9/19/2007 4:09:43 PM

   @28 - I'd like to hear Improv but I'll settle for Jazz.

1. 31  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/19/2007 4:20:40 PM

   @30, ah, so that's your Agenda?

1. 32  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 9/19/2007 5:09:42 PM

   I can tell we have a WordPro or two here...

1. 33  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 9/19/2007 5:10:24 PM

   OK, we better stop or someone will get Warp:ed out of shape...

1. 34  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 9/19/2007 5:40:08 PM

   By the way, did anyone read Joel Spolsky's take on this?

   { Link }

   "IBM just released an open-source office suite called IBM Lotus Symphony. Sounds like Yet Another StarOffice distribution. But I suspect they’re probably trying to wipe out the memory of the original Lotus Symphony, which had been hyped as the Second Coming and which fell totally flat. It was the software equivalent of Gigli."

1. 35  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 9/19/2007 8:43:47 PM

   @29 - There was an IBM Symphony: { Link } (via Vowe... in a roundabout way)

1. 36  David Gursky  | 9/19/2007 8:47:48 PM

   Y'all realize I still have a NeXT and it has Improv on it...

   (These puns are as simple as 1-2-3)

1. 37  Brian Green  | 9/19/2007 11:14:54 PM

   From the Internet Archive:

   "...once upon a time there was actual competition among spreadsheet products." This is an episode of the Computer Chronicles, originally broadcast in 1988.

   { Link }

1. 38  Dan Sickles  | 9/19/2007 11:59:57 PM

   @36 - I used to drool over those NeXT boxes. I pretty much drool over any cool hw/sw combination. I'm drooling on my new ipod touch as a write this.

   "there was actual competition among spreadsheet products"

   I was rootin' for PFS:CALC. If it had won, we all might be using PFS:NOTES.

1. 39  Henry Ferlauto http://www.geniusinside.com | 9/20/2007 5:19:26 AM

   Well, this thread has turned into a wonderful trip down memory lane.

   Question for everyone: How many of you still have t-shirts of the various products mentioned?

   Could make for an interesting contest at Lotusphere: Best old IBM and/or Lotus t-shirt. (And knowing the crowd demographics, NOT a wet t-shirt!) :)

1. 40  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 9/20/2007 7:14:35 AM

   @39: At last Lotusphere I was wearing the 1997 Lotusphere t-shirt. :-) But I actually have a few older ones, like a Windows 95 t-shirt, a MS Developer Network (tie-dyed!) t-shirt I got in 1994, and of course OS/2 Warp 3.0...

1. 41  Cali Clarke  | 9/20/2007 9:46:42 AM

   @39, @40 - Don't forget to take pics of any old Lotus T-shirts/products/giveaways/memorabilia and submit them to the Lotus Museum - { Link }

1. 42  Carl Tyler http://www.iminstant.com | 9/20/2007 12:37:29 PM

   @41 You must have a quite a collection yourself Cali?

   I gave most of my stuff away two Lotuspheres ago or trashed it, I couldn't see the point in keeping it around anymore.

1. 43  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/20/2007 2:07:21 PM

   I have a yellow (yellow is a total understatement, it's the perfect color, even for a sports car) Lotus coffee/tea cup, but it fell on the stone floor few weeks ago and now it has a crack and some corner's are missing. I love that cup so much, and I hope I would get a new one from Lotus.

1. 44  Mika Heinonen http://www.siipi.com/mika | 9/20/2007 2:10:39 PM

   On a sidenote, I painted the missing corners with blue ink, so that blue marks the damage done to my Lotus cup.

1. 45  David Gursky  | 9/20/2007 7:51:16 PM

   @39 Having seen Dan Sickles in real life, and as much as I like and respect him, I do NOT relish the thought of Dan Sickles in a wet t-shirt...

   I do however have old DECtapes around. Somewhere....

1. 46  Henry Ferlauto http://www.geniusinside.com | 9/20/2007 10:17:27 PM

   @46 - That why I said "NOT" a wet t-shirt. :)

   A few other categories for the contest:

   + Best t-shirt of a "dead" software package

   + Best t-shirt of a "dead" piece of hardware

   + Most obscure t-shirt

   + Corniest slogan*

   * With an old beach ball, not a t-shirt I might win this one (but I'm not sure if I still have around from IBM, promoting wireless technologies):

   Work on the LAN, while you work on your tan.