Lotus Notes In Middle Earth

August 9 2007

Nice story about Notes 8 from New Zealand: Crossware shows it's not all about .Net and Java.  (thanks Mike)

"Have you seen Notes 8? Wow! Seriously, wow"
"This is shaping up to be the biggest year for Lotus since Notes 1 was released."
"The best way to describe Notes 8 is take Outlook, give it a beautiful user interface and make it much more workable, with social software, same-time collaborative functions and so on."
"We're orienting most of our development to use it. It's making us and our clients very happy."

Alan Lepofsky Cambridge, MA, USA Category: Add/View Comments [32]

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  1. 1  Gavin Bollard http://dominogavin.blogspot.com/ | 8/9/2007 5:50:23 PM

    Funny that the MS Slogans are all about the Wow... It looks like you have to go to IBM/Lotus to get a decent "wow".

  1. 2  Thorsten Ebers  | 8/10/2007 2:15:11 AM

    The only wow I know of is from Blizzard. :-)

    For the Horde !!

  1. 3  Alan Smith  | 8/10/2007 4:12:10 AM

    wow > Middle Earth ;)

  1. 4  Ross Hawkins http://www.rosshawkins.net/ | 8/10/2007 7:04:10 AM

    Hi Alan,

    Yes it's true, both of the Notes Developers left in New Zealand love Lotus Notes R8!

  1. 5  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 8/10/2007 8:50:43 AM

    Ross, lucky you! I've got another developer to talk to.

  1. 6  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 8/10/2007 8:56:57 AM

    @4/@5 So who are all these customers and partners in New Zealand that Ed keeps visiting?

    { Link }

  1. 7  CasmonD - Zul’jin  | 8/10/2007 10:12:26 AM

    @2 Did you see the post about leadership in the virtual world?

  1. 8  Vitor Pereira http://www.vitor-pereira.com | 8/10/2007 10:13:57 AM

    Alan, I'm not in New Zealand. No one visits here. Well, Ed did earlier this year but just because he was on his way back from LCTY in Israel and could not say no to the local team.

  1. 9  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 8/10/2007 12:20:26 PM

    @8 - You have a local team? ;-)

  1. 10  Ross Hawkins http://www.rosshawkins.net/ | 8/10/2007 5:16:58 PM

    Hi Alan,

    My bad. IBM and Lotus Notes are dominating in New Zealand. Really, everyone is talking about them. Their relevance in the marketplace continues to grow following momentum of the excellent NO DEMAND campaign.

    Everything is fine here, thanks. How are you?

    However, if you're really interested, you could sign up for a weekly jobmail at it.seek.co.nz and check out how many Domino Developer jobs get posted. You could also check out how they sit around for months unfilled. You could also check out the sound of growing desperation in the voice of the agents as they beg anyone in the community if they know anyone still doing Domino in this country.

    Btw, there's no need to get defensive. IBM in New Zealand is nothing but a source of amusement to me :)

  1. 11  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 5:17:38 PM

    IBM is in NZ?

  1. 12  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 8/10/2007 8:06:11 PM

    hmm, not sure what to make of some of these comments. Vitor, it's not "just" because I "couldn't say no to the local team"... you know that I wanted to get to Portugal for some time (I suspect your comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but not sure everyone realized that). Ross, glad we gave you a venue to vent a bit, I continue to funnel feedback to regional teams where we need to do more in the market. Sam, clever wit again, but IBM is certainly active in NZ, and I know there are NZ launch events for ND8 queued up for next month.

  1. 13  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 9:02:05 PM

    Ed,

    So, being one of the larger companies using Notes/Domino still left in NZ means we don't qualify for being told when these "launch events" are "queued"?

    If ND8 will save the world (wasn't 7 supposed to be the Outlook-killer as well?), why have I written/helped write proposals for two companies to migrate to Exchange in the last two weeks?

  1. 14  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 8/10/2007 9:10:36 PM

    @13 Sam, I don't think anyone ever represented Notes 7 to be an "outlook killer". The ND7 release was more focused on the server than the client, and ND8 is more focused on the client than the server. We've been pretty clear about this aspect of the roadmap.

    I don't direct the activities of the individual Lotus salespeople or IT Specialists, so I can't comment on how/who should have told you about launch events. I will check into it when I'm back from holidays next week.

  1. 15  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 8/10/2007 9:12:06 PM

    @13 oh and as for proposals, you would know better than I as to why. I've seen many proposals made but not accepted, usually the ones paid for by Microsoft or Accenture / Avanade. In the end, they usually present an opportunity for IBM to show the customer the value of Notes now and in the future. In some cases, customers who said they were migrating haven't. So there are a lot of variables.

  1. 16  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 9:21:10 PM

    Ed,

    Can you point me to the Lotus Notes/Domino roadmap? I get some interesting hits when I google "lotus notes roadmap", but nothing about killing Outlook.

    The proposals are always about the same thing: bringing in Outlook because it's a better mail client for the majority of users, and migrating custom apps to a platform that can be supported with a reasonable cost.

    As Ross said, we can't find a Notes/Domino developer to support our existing infrastructure, let alone add new shinies to our applications.

  1. 17  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 9:28:54 PM

    RE: roadmap. Found it. Silly me, I was looking for NZ results only for the roadmap.

  1. 18  Alan Lepofsky  | 8/10/2007 10:08:51 PM

    "We can't find a Notes developer..."

    Using the Business Partner search site and entering New Zealand as the country and Software:Lotus under expertice I see 23 results returned. Can I vouch for all of them? Of course not, but it is a good place for you to start.

  1. 19  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 8/10/2007 10:20:02 PM

    @10 Maybe I should move to New Zealand.

    a) I love it there. { Link }

    b) Sounds like I would be in a great bargaining position for jobs offers.

    Interesting how such a possitive article about a New Zealand based partner turns into a negative conversation about partners in New Zealand.

  1. 20  Ross Hawkins http://www.rosshawkins.net/ | 8/10/2007 11:17:18 PM

    @18 The name of his company would be one of the names on that list.. hence why they're looking for a developer etc.

  1. 21  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 11:52:33 PM

    @19 And the "positive" article reports that this one successful Notes development project floats in a vast sea of Java and .NET projects.

    Why should we be happy that Notes/Domino development projects get "Aww, how cute!" news coverage?

  1. 22  Sam Wood http://www.idolatry.org | 8/10/2007 11:57:31 PM

    @18 75% of our internal systems use various Notes/Domino applications. Using an outsourcer to provide development support is not even close to being cost effective.

  1. 23  Pedro Quaresma  | 8/11/2007 8:07:15 AM

    I took a peek at the Notes jobs at seek.co.nz site but, assuming the salaries are on NZDs, they didn't seem very attractive.

  1. 24  Per Andersen http://www.crossware.co.nz | 8/11/2007 2:43:48 PM

    WOW - That story got some attention ! Funny although as the story was more about a particular Customer Case than Notes 8. But let me just correct a few mistakes.

    There are quite a number of developers in New Zealand. Just within Crossware we are about 15 dedicated Notes entusiasts, so I'm not quite sure where Ross got his "two developers from". Having said that Lotus is seriously under represented in New Zealand, so we could definitely use both Ed and Alan for a long time to shake the ground. And salaries are definitely not on the high side, but compared to cost of living and the "Universal cost of a burger" it is comparable to both US and UK, so just come along. As an added benefit you get the chance to live in a beautiful country, could be why Ed want's to come back....

  1. 25  Daniel Wright  | 8/12/2007 3:26:26 AM

    @19 I don't think it's a negative conversation specifically about IBM partners in NZ, but more a conversation about how IBM and notes/domino in general are perceived by those in the industry in NZ?

    @24 I don't want to be a party pooper but saying that salaries are "comparable" especially when you factor in that NZ is pretty doesn't really cut it. The real point is that there started to be a real lack of notes/domino jobs and the end result is that a lot of people retrained (more often than not into .NET) and now there is a real lack of people to fill what notes/domino jobs there are.

    I've been doing notes/domino for a decade (starting on R3) and I'm the last of my notes/domino peer group to changemy career path because there is a dearth of choice and interesting projects in NZ on this platform.

  1. 26  Doug Anderson  | 8/12/2007 3:55:52 PM

    My CV says R5 CLP, R6 CLP. Yet I'm currently working as a .Net Developler.

    Jobs in the Domino world are very few and far between in New Zealand, and I can only assume that is because Domino's market share in NZ has deminished.

    Please proove me wrong, but until that day I'll continue working on Microsoft Applications in the most beautifull country in the world !

  1. 27  Chris Sparshott http://www.ibm.com/nz | 8/12/2007 6:43:48 PM

    Hello there,

    For those who have not been invited to the Lotus Notes 8 / Domino 8 launch please register for IBM Forum in New Zealand at the link below.

    { Link }

    This event represents a large portion of the IBM capabilities available within New Zealand.

    Come along, it will be fun and I will be happy to take any of you through the Lotus Strategy / Roadmap.

    Chris Sparshott

    Lotus New Zealand

  1. 28  Vaughan Rivett http://st1.rivettassociates.com/Web/Vaughans.nsf/ | 8/23/2007 12:45:30 AM

    I am very passionate about Lotus Notes and I really like the new version (R8) as it has some really good features which again set it apart from it's compeditiors.

    However, I always think that to move forwad we need to be honest with the facts. I am based in New Zealand and I deal with clients all over the world. I have been on the New Zealand scene for a long time but have also lived and worked with Lotus Notes in international roles overseas.

    Lotus Notes is not doing anywhere as well as Microsoft Exchange in New Zealand. Even though it is a lot better product (it is more than mail), IBM has not managed to nail the New Zealand market.

    I have also found that the skill base in New Zealand for Lotus Notes is very limited, particually on the development side. I know of one or two developers who I would call good but certinally not excellent. One of the problems is that the developers don't realise the potential of the product they are working with. Their experience, in the main, is based on small business New Zealand (there would only be a couple off accounts which I can think of here in New Zelaand which would boast over 2,000 users).

  1. 29  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 8/23/2007 2:43:24 AM

    FWIW, one of the finest Notes & Domino developers I know is a kiwi. He had some work with Notes whilst he lived in Oz, but ever since he got back home he's been too busy fixing up houses / trying to burn them down again.

    What I'm trying to say is that NZ is no different to the rest of the world: the talent is most definitely there, management just have to learn how to make the environment attractive enough to tease it out.

  1. 30  Vaughan Rivett http://www.rivettassociates.com | 8/23/2007 1:39:13 PM

    @29

    The interesting thing is that when I have tried for months to find local people to work on various coutracts there has not been anyone around or the people who have put themselves forward have not been advanced enough.

  1. 31  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 8/23/2007 2:44:09 PM

    I can't talk about the NZ market, but if you're coming up empty, are you pitching right? How are you recruiting? When you say "local" how far are you looking? Obviously the smaller area, the smaller the pool of talent upon which to draw. Have you considered remote / off-site contractors in a bid to find the right person? Is your offer attractive?

    Here in the UK I see a lot of job ads for "senior" Domino people. This is heartening -- lots more positions being advertised than five years ago -- but can also be depressing. A lot of these ads are asking for Bill Buchan-level people, but paying way below par.

    Someone like Bill** is worth A LOT of money to any organisation, but pretty much all of these postings have one thing in common: the pay being offered for the skills required is insulting. I guess that's why I see the same posts advertised again, and again, and again...

    (** I realise that "someone like Bill" simply doesn't exist, but you get my point... :) )

  1. 32  Larry Beck http://www.alignrecruitment.com | 10/7/2007 7:26:41 PM

    Hi All,

    I have an overseas senior level Lotus Notes/Domino professional with her work-to-residence visa issued. All she needs is a job. Any vacancies out there?

    Kind regards,

    Larry

    03 366 8779

    larry@alignrecruitment