Lotusphere topic brainstorming

July 25 2007

So this topic is a bit self-centered, let's just get that out of the way upfront.

As I mentioned a few days ago, we're starting to plan for Lotusphere 2008.  One of the threads passing through my brain is, "what should I speak about at LS08?"  And while I have a few ideas, I am struggling for something that won't be perceived as "too marketing" for the technical Lotusphere agenda.  I also don't want to repeat topics I've done in prior years...I'd like the challenge of something brand-new.

I'll certainly do a business development day presentation on Notes/Domino, but as for the main conference...what would you like to see?  Also, if you have topics that are high on your list, not for me but that you'd really like to see on the conference agenda, happy to hear those, too.  I think Rocky has asked that question the last couple of years, but he's asked it specifically in the context of the best practices track.  I might as well ask the more general question, as the call for abstracts will be going out within the next couple of weeks.

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category: Add/View Comments [58]

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  1. 1  Chris Miller http://www.IdoNotes.com | 7/25/2007 12:23:24 PM

    Something way different but you have more exposure to it than anyone. A real world example of adoption and actual usages of Lotus Notes globally. Not only geographic (mail used more here, apps more here, sametime more here) but also in terms of why you see the adoption rates so varied. Versioning is important here too.

    sorry, I must be hungry to suggest that one.

  1. 2  Don McNally http://dmcnally.blogspot.com | 7/25/2007 12:57:46 PM

    How do *you* use all the Lotus software to help you do your job? For example:

    - Reading RSS feeds with Sametime and/or Notes 8 feed reader

    - Organizing documents and information using Quickr

    - Finding necessary expertise or information using Connections

    - Checking the pulse of your organization using dashboards and/or portals

    Or how customers are using Lotus software in concert with other software. For example, we can't be the only company using Exchange for mail and Domino for applications. How do you people get the Domino data out without defining everyone as Domino users?

  1. 3  Daniel Lieber http://www.iiui.com | 7/25/2007 1:56:05 PM

    A presentation showing examples of hard $$$ return on investment for implementations, upgrades, etc. for customers completely outside of the IT profession would be extraordinarily useful when provided with the context of WHY the organizations are achieving a positive IRR/ROI using the Lotus technology in production. If you can do a compendium of organizations and examples across the product line, showing examples where individual products shine (i.e. Sametime or Portal) and where bundles result in the high return (i.e. CEO bundles, Collaboration bundles, etc.), it would be very useful to several different audiences so the audience knows how others are showing a positive IRR/ROI, the metrics they are using and assumptions, it would be greatly helpful to the IT directors, managers, and technical staff who constantly have to justify the projects. The business partners would also greatly appreciate this type of success story compendium.

    Just my 2c!

  1. 4  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/25/2007 1:58:39 PM

    @3 I'd love to do it -- historically, it has been VERY difficult to get customers to quantify this kind of information.

  1. 5  Keith Brooks http://lotustech.blogspot.com | 7/25/2007 2:00:17 PM

    One thing which always frsutrates me and some others is many clients are not even at R7(no idea of percentage but I woould say 50% on R7 the rest on many things less?) let alone R8 and everything is aimed a the new.

    What do you do different now that you couldn't, RSS is huge of course but what else in your client makes your day better?

    Like the previous posts above, you are a typical(well heavy typical) user and everyone would liek to be as functional as y ou are so comparing your past clients to now is helpful to the masses.

    But the cutting edge people would be left out, so for them its about shaping your user experience with your phone or other device. Is it really helpful, aside from email?

    Just some thoughts

  1. 6  Keith Brooks http://lotustech.blogspot.com | 7/25/2007 2:06:05 PM

    @3, much of what you ask is specific to a company. Does a CRM app pay off? Or a helpdesk db?

    The answer of course is yes and no, from a $$ and a time perspective.

    Does Domino make life easier, yes, then quantify it, your minutes saved by average salary by week/month year, et al.

    Don't forget to factor in you are 1 of how many people now multiply it by the number of users, now include your vendors, etc.. and you get to a huge ROI easily.

    Software, hardware and network costs are not an ROI, they are base costs, the ROI is in the applications used/accessed or time saved or reduced network overhead, etc.

    Sure I can save a company $1million a week in downtime, but is that enough ROI for them to pay me even 1% of that? not yet, but that is hard numbers and factual.

  1. 7  Scott Stewart  | 7/25/2007 2:28:23 PM

    "Users(or The Boss) Ask For SharePoint, Where Does That Leave Lotus?"

    You can demonstrate ways that Lotus technologies offer similar or identical functionality, opportunities to integrate and extend the two technologies and, of course, how to battle the "but, it's free" argument.

  1. 8  Randy Smith  | 7/25/2007 2:33:08 PM

    How about some real world case studies of Notes-to-Exchange migrations (where the names are changed to protect the ignorant... er... innocent). Personally, I've not heard of a single Notes-to-Exchange migration that I would call a success. I have heard of a few miserable failures and a few that are on the road to failure. But then, I've really only talked to end users, developers, admins, etc. that have been impacted. I'm sure the M$ spin doctors could paint me a totally different picture.

    What I would like to see is factual information coming from these migration projects. For example, what was the intent going into the migration? Migrate just messaging, or messaging, applications, and/or other collaborative technologies? What were the projected timeframes for the migration efforts? Then what were the actual results. For example, how many applications were actually migrated? How much loss of functionality did the migrated applications suffer? Was the migration completed anywhere near the projected timeframe? What were the actual costs compared to projected costs (including increased hardware, software, licensing, training, additional personnel costs, as well as the cost of running two platforms during the migration period).

  1. 9  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/25/2007 2:37:43 PM

    How to put all this stuff together... I've got Notes, Domino and Sametime... now where does Quickr fit in? And it's got two editions or something like that. And what about Connections (which is 5 products?). It's just a little overwhelming to try to put it all together and everything I've seen has been from the 50,000 foot view. How do you take Notes 8 and integrate it with all the new stuff? That's what I'd like to see in one consolidated presentation/demonstration. Make it a hands on lab, if possible. I'd be willing to pay my own way to Lotusphere just for that.

  1. 10  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 7/25/2007 2:54:47 PM

    @4 - if you have a hard time finding good ROI case studies from customers, maybe a session on how to conduct them?

    I mean, if you can offer up some easy & clear methods to calculate costs & benefits from a Notes/Domino application, that might be really compelling.

    I suppose you'd need to co-present with an accountant or something for that.

  1. 11  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 7/25/2007 3:51:02 PM

    "Co present with an accountant"...

    Ah-ha. Yeah. Count me in for that. At 8am. On thursday morning. Zzzzzzzzzz....

    You know how to tell you have an agressive accountant ? He stares at *your* shoes...

    ---* Bill "I hate accountants with more passion than I hate the IBM BP program" Buchan

    ;-)

  1. 12  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 7/25/2007 4:09:57 PM

    Bill...

    I was half an accounting major at NYU. Did you find my presentation style boring?

    Oh wait... you didn't COME to my presentations. :-P

  1. 13  Michael Wuerdemann http://www.engram.de | 7/25/2007 4:30:30 PM

    What about showing an example of upgrading a simple R5 / R6 / 7.0.x only-mail-using-company to an ND8 plus Sametime 7.5.1 plus Quickr plus Connections environment?

    From an admin's or employee's point of view...

  1. 14  Chris Reckling http://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/insidelotusblog.nsf/ | 7/25/2007 5:15:40 PM

    Ed - you need to go super-geeky and do one of Balaban's Java presentations. I bet people would pay to see that one. :) I think they are fluff-free zones.

    Chris

  1. 15  David Russell  | 7/25/2007 11:43:38 PM

    Id like to echo No 8. Id love to go to a presentation like this, and not just exchange conversions - conversions from Novell etc. Success stories.

  1. 16  Geoff Clarke  | 7/26/2007 3:17:15 AM

    Could you include somewhere in the program and update on the progress on the roadmap to integrate Quickr and Domino Document Manager

  1. 17  Ian Randall  | 7/26/2007 3:43:10 AM

    Ed - You travel extensively around the world and get to speak to many, many senior executives about what they have achieved with Notes/Domino and are planning to do with Lotus Notes/Domino 8.

    While Lotusphere is a technical conference, there is room for a presentation from you that shares some of this insight with other Lotusphere attendees.

    We would all benefit from a an explanation about how other organizations are benefiting from the Notes/Domino platform, and what the senior executives in these organizations plan to do when Notes 8 is rolled out.

    You don't need to have a huge number of examples, just a presentation that underlines the insights and some comments that some of these senior executives have shared with you from the many organizations you visit constantly(large & small) that might motivate other organizations to emulate.

    It doesn't just have to be about the technology, but also about the business results that are being achieved, for example:

    a) The largest NAB you are aware of and how this is being managed,

    b) The smallest site with the biggest ROI that you are aware of,

    c) The "smartest system" that you are aware of,

    d) The best example of Systems Integration from around the world,

    e) The best multi-lingual system,

    d) The biggest organization with the smallest ratio of support and development people that you are aware of,

    e) The best example of new innovation from an organization that has recently migrated to Domino within the last few years,

    f) The best and longest running "killer application" that is still running on a Domino server from an organization that has previously migrated to Exchange & an explanation (from the client) why this application has not been migrated to the MS Platform yet?,

    g) Some feedback from the senior management that you meet from the hundreds of Notes/Domino organizations around the world and how excited "they" feel about the future of the Notes/Domino platform and for the integration potential with other Lotus/IBM products. (e.g. Quickr)

    I know that occastionally you share some of this info when you return from each trip, but for Lotusphere 2008, you can compile a specific presentation that highlights this information in a concise and upbeat way.

    Such a presentation is also a departure from the typical vendor comparison stuff that sometimes dominates this Blog.

    I feel that such a presentation is also an opportunity to present Notes/Domino 8 in the most positive light for Lotusphere 2008 and to get people excited about what different organizations around the world are actually achieving with the Lotus technology.

    Who knows, it may even inspire one of us to develop something really wonderfull.

    So my suggestion is to allow others to cover the really technical topics and for you to focus on what you see and hear from talking to these senior executives from around the world. And to share with us what they are achieving and are getting really excited about.

    You might even consider a follow-up of this presentation with some more detailed case studies.

  1. 18  Lars Berntrop-Bos  | 7/26/2007 4:20:30 AM

    @Ian: From Bill Buchan and Paul Mooney's Worst practices: largest mail file: > 240 GB. Serious numbers like that impress!

  1. 19  Peter D Cox http://www.tmpl-online.co.uk | 7/26/2007 5:17:22 AM

    All this BIG stuff sounds great - and all deserve sessions (and not just at a techie Lotusphere that most of us cannot justify going to.) Where I am looking it's all about SMEs and micro businesses who actually get the greatest TRANSFORMATIONAL impact out of these products. It's getting more complicated to see how Notes/Domino, Quickr (Quickplace) and Sametime can be effectively deployed on the small scale. We seem to have lost the service providers concept (Instances of Quickplace for example). For our clients we need a move back to simplicity (eg one server at base?) but perhaps with big service providers (isn't that what Web2 is all about?).

    Now Ed, if you could square some of those circles ......

  1. 20  Hynek Kobelka http://www.pylonware.com | 7/26/2007 6:44:51 AM

    My dream session: "How to install Domino+Sametime+RTCGateway+Quickr+Connections on ONE server in 3 hours"

    -Tell them what minimum iron they will need. (for testing purposes)

    -Show them how to install it themselves.

    -Offer them one combined license for all these products together

    -Give them trial versions to play with

    ... and thousands of SMBs will come. :-)

    PS: Ok, maybe this is too technical for Ed, but maybe someone other could do it :-)))

  1. 21  Jim Casale  | 7/26/2007 6:59:45 AM

    @8 By the time LS2008 rolls around I will be in or close to starting the "looking at Exchange" project. I would be willing to share my experiences as long as the company name is not revealed(they are touchy about any publicity in general). Then again, I am not sure how legitimately I would be perceived by not revealing the company name.

    I do think you have a good suggestion as there are probably many others in the same situation. I am finding it hard to provide real world examples of why it would be a bad idea to go to Exchange (especially when A MS rep tells the CIO that Exchange 2007 mailboxes have "unlimited" storage)

    For example

    How much more hardware was need to do the same workload as Domino.

    Real world experiences with large maiboxes (greater then 2 GB..more like greater then 5+GB)

    What additional addons would you need for Exchange to get the same administrative functionality that comes out the box with Domino.

    How does Exchange clustering compare to Domino clustering

    What backup window does Exchange need for the same amount of data as a Domino server.

    Features in the Notes client that are not in the Outlook client.

  1. 22  Robert Harris  | 7/26/2007 7:30:23 AM

    I am with Charles (@9). What would it take to have the "dream" Lotus architecture: ND8, Quickr, Connections, Sametime, Websphere Portal (any others I am missing?). I've put this question to my sales rep. Realistically I don't see my organization springing for all these products at once... but if together they really do provide the dream solution, what would it cost for an organization to implement per user? A presentation bringing all of these products together would be a handy thing to bring back and share with IT management.

  1. 23  Keith Brooks http://lotustech.blogspot.com | 7/26/2007 7:37:57 AM

    Perhaps an onstage discussion with your counterpart at Microsoft or Novell or Google :-)

    Like the candidates debate.

  1. 24  Mike Mortin http://www.sasktel.com | 7/26/2007 11:29:10 AM

    @9 ... I agree, Charles. This would be a big hit!

  1. 25  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2007 11:42:53 AM

    @21 I can tell you one thing, whatever MS tells you will be inaccurate. Mail me with those questions and I can give you some pointers, such as where MS admits that they are now using more servers for Exchange 2007 internally than Exchange 200x, that the scalability is pretty much limited to a couple thousand users in E2007, that the shared store issues persist, etc.

  1. 26  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 7/26/2007 1:37:20 PM

    @20 - I am planning to submit something along those lines... Domino/Notes/Quickr/Sametime integration and setup...

  1. 27  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2007 1:38:10 PM

    @26, great!

    @All - I am going to be posting a newer blog topic, but let's keep this one going...

  1. 28  Henry Ferlauto http://www.geniusinside.com | 7/26/2007 1:59:29 PM

    A few misc. suggestions in no particular order:

    (1) Contrary to popular opinion, small companies do use Lotus

    Profile some "SMB" and "VSB" companies. Show how they use it, how they benefit from it, etc. Make sure third party solutions are shown as well, not just mail and IM.

    (2) Less is more (capacity)

    Demonstrate how Domino can be put on very large servers (e.g. mainframes, etc.) and how they can serve an incredible number of users at once. Versus how Exchange will require server farms. Probably the easiest way to prove the ROI advantages of Domino.

    (3) Less is more (Domino does many things - You need a whole lotta Microsoft "stuff" to do the same thing)

    This is partially a shameless plug for my company and its products, but I am sure there are plenty of other good examples out there as well that demonstrate how powerful Domino is and how many Microsoft servers it can take to get the same basic functionality.

    Genius Project4Domino from Genius Inside ({ Link } ) is a collaborative project management suite. When going up against Microsoft, the like "product" is Microsoft Office Project Server (and Portfolio Server).

    We basically need one Domino server; and for the client Lotus Notes or a web browser. Java running on both ends.

    Here are the requirements for the "equivalent" offering from Microsoft: { Link }

    The list is simply massive. I think showing a few applications like this and the enormous number of "moving parts" required from Microsoft to deliver the same type of functionality helps demonstrate that illusive ROI.

    (4) Can't we all just get along?

    A demonstration of Lotus' cross-platform commitments, now and for the future. Many people have heard about Notes running on Mac & Linux, but they've never really seen it. Similarly, on the server side of things.

    (4a) Can't we all just get along? (For Developers)

    How to develop very sophisticated cross-platform friendly Notes & Domino applications. There are some really great ISV applications available for Notes & Domino; but many are OS specific. (e.g. rely on Windows)

    (5) How to make Lotus Kool-Aid (and get others to take a sip)

    Tips, methods, etc. on how to introduce / propose Lotus technology to your organization.

    (6) How to make your Domino server (and its applications) work in an on-demand world.

    This could actually be two sessions, one admin, one app-dev. But the basic idea is how to make Lotus products work on a subscription basis.

    (7) Real-world composite applications

    I would like to see some customer examples of composite applications; many of them.

    (7a) I think there should also be a lab session on building composite applications.

  1. 29  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/26/2007 3:43:07 PM

    @26 - What, no Connections in that list? <whistling innocently>

  1. 30  Chris Miller http://www.IdoNotes.com | 7/26/2007 8:14:33 PM

    @20 & 29 - We have it covered. we did most of that whole integration in 3 hours at Collaboration University workshops twice and you could run the gateway load at the same time. Connections along the same lines. A lot moving at once but possible..

  1. 31  Nick Halliwell http://www.comware.net | 7/27/2007 2:25:58 AM

    I agree with @17 and @19.

    Ed it would be great to discuss stuff that effects the IBM's strategic direction ie the SMB market.

    In Thailand MS is very active at pushing there CRM product, they are telling absolute lies about the pricing, they are not telling customer how many servers they need and all the other stuff that they need to make it work in the same way as a similar product would on Notes.

    I am not looking at a MS bashing session but at some real word comparisons for say a 700 user system and a 4,000 user system running Domino/Exchange MS CRM and a typical business partner CRM solution, I am more than happy for you to use our products in your example, they cost $10,000 for a Contact management System, Sales Management and Call Centre. The equivalent MS Product is being quote in Thailand for $23,500.

    Sometime I think there is too much focus on massive 10K+ user bases. Remember that there are 10,000's of much smaller customers out there that are just not served by these sort of events.

    SME's tend to be less shy about publicity than multinationals or US Banks etc. Why not cast your net wider and look to Eurpoe and Asia for stuff.?????

  1. 32  Nick Halliwell http://www.comware.net | 7/27/2007 2:26:20 AM

    I agree with @17 and @19.

    Ed it would be great to discuss stuff that effects the IBM's strategic direction ie the SMB market.

    In Thailand MS is very active at pushing there CRM product, they are telling absolute lies about the pricing, they are not telling customer how many servers they need and all the other stuff that they need to make it work in the same way as a similar product would on Notes.

    I am not looking at a MS bashing session but at some real word comparisons for say a 700 user system and a 4,000 user system running Domino/Exchange MS CRM and a typical business partner CRM solution, I am more than happy for you to use our products in your example, they cost $10,000 for a Contact management System, Sales Management and Call Centre. The equivalent MS Product is being quote in Thailand for $23,500.

    Sometime I think there is too much focus on massive 10K+ user bases. Remember that there are 10,000's of much smaller customers out there that are just not served by these sort of events.

    SME's tend to be less shy about publicity than multinationals or US Banks etc. Why not cast your net wider and look to Europe and Asia for stuff.?????

  1. 33  Nick Halliwell http://www.comware.net | 7/27/2007 2:27:14 AM

    Sorry don't know why I got 2 posting there, Ed please remove 1.

  1. 34  Peter D Cox http://www.tmpl-online.co.uk | 7/27/2007 4:34:31 AM

    Following on from my post @19 and others concurring:

    I'd be VERY happy to provide a case study of micro business (us) and to be able to tell you want our client base NEEDS and can rarely put together because:

    - it's not clear what bits needs connecting

    - the hardware requirements look daunting

    - (and this is the hard one) its hard to find IT professionals who can a) do this stuff with Lotus/IBM products at all b) do it reliably in terms of customer service (we've been through half a dozen 'partners'!) and c) be able to ignore the Microsoft noise ....

    We're able to give you ten years experience of highs (and lows mostly)

    Peter D Cox tmpl-online.co.uk

  1. 35  Sean Burgess http://www.phigsaidwhat.com/ | 7/27/2007 11:12:36 AM

    I am not sure if this is enough for a full session, but a true, detailed breakdown of Notes/Domino 8 + Sametime vs MS SMB server would surely be something that would interest me. It would be great to be able to take that information back to customers.

  1. 36  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/27/2007 1:20:29 PM

    number of good ideas here,... will react over the weekend, keep 'em coming

  1. 37  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/30/2007 12:12:51 PM

    What about a "technical shootout"?

    Set up a fairly simple scenario, involving some setup, admin and development of a simple application.

    Then let an experienced Domino developer/consultant perform it using Notes tools, and then do the same using a MS developer/admin using MS tools.

    Have the process timed (broken down into segments) and document what was done, what tools were used, the licenses needed, etc.

    Something like this:

    1) Install server software, setup say 5 users in 2 or 3 different groups (reader, editor and manager?).

    2) Setup a client.

    3) Develop a simple application with a couple of forms, views, approval mechanism through e-mail (manager being mailed and asked to approve status change to next level, for example), lookup of manager into NAB/AD, etc. Application should be able to run locally on a disconnected laptop (e.g. if the user is on an airplane), then syncronize data when connected again. Awareness/IM functionality should be included in the application as well, so the manager can see if the person working the document is avaliable for discussions. Just a simple/normal application, like we build every day.

    4) Deploy the application to client and web.

    5) Change something on the form (background color, add a field, etc) and deploy the changes.

    I am sure someone can come up with a better idea/spec for the application, though.

  1. 38  Randy Smith  | 7/30/2007 1:42:42 PM

    @37 - I would even be willing to pay to see something like that. However, you must keep in mind that the Lotusphere conference is only 5 days long. That pretty much excludes MS as a competitor in your scenario :-)

  1. 39  TimB  | 7/30/2007 2:33:22 PM

    @37 - That would be great - the audience might even be better if it was a travelling roadshow (a la Lotusphere Come to You). To add a final step to your list, though:

    Step "n": Port the completed application to Linux, iSeries, etc.

  1. 40  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/31/2007 9:29:13 AM

    @38: Hehehe...

    A live shootout would been the coolest, of course. Have a special lab setup where you can watch the two teams[1] side by side (with a divider between), and have a big score board for each team where the time to achieve the steps are recorded side by side. That way people can come by and keep up with the progress.

    I was more thinking about having this shootout done before the show, recorded and under supervision of someone impartial. But live would be better.

    [1] The "team" will probably be a single developer in the Domino case...

  1. 41  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/31/2007 9:51:36 AM

    I like this shootout idea a lot.... keep going on it and I'll see if I can attract some attention

  1. 42  Randy Smith  | 7/31/2007 10:08:27 AM

    @40 - The scoreboard should also display the number and cost of components required to acheive the results (client/server software and hardware requirements, server and CAL licenses, etc.).

  1. 43  Rob McDonagh http://www.CaptainOblivious.com | 7/31/2007 12:00:28 PM

    Quick comment about the shootout: if you want it to be meaningful, you'll have to come up with a less Notes-centric application spec, wouldn't you? I know Karl-Henry already pointed out that he doesn't think the spec is quite right, and this isn't by any means a slam on the suggestion.

    Oh, and @38: Doesn't the same problem (only 5 days) occur if Websphere Portal is a competitor? :P

  1. 44  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/31/2007 1:31:30 PM

    @43: I totally agree, the application/solution need to be generic, something a company would come to a consultant and ask for. At the same time, it has to be trivial enough to build in a day or two for an experience programmer.

    Why not have more than two teams? One Notes/Domino, one Microsoft and one WebSphere. You think IBM would dare? ;-)

    Any other platforms that should be invited?

    I think the teams should not be IBM or MS employees, but business partners or consulting companies that have experience with the tools.

    Another thing to think about: should it be allowed to bring pre-written code? I am sure many of us developers have some standard routines we use all the time, perhaps stored in a couple of script libraries or in a snippets database.

    What about downloading code from online resources? Should the developers even have internet access? A full set of manuals and reference litterature should be allowed, though.

    I think the exact program specification should be secret until the competition starts, or perhaps give the teams an hour or two before the actual start to decide on a strategy.

    Let's say the shoot-out start Sunday morning. At 9am the teams get the objective and specifications, the room is ready with clean servers and clients hooked up into two separate networks. The team then get 1 hour to read through the specifications, decide on what software they need and request it. They then have another hour to work on the application logic or any planning they like, and at 11am the software is delivered at the same time to both teams.

    They now can start the work.

    Then the progress can be monitored during the day, and at the opening session Monday morning the progress can be presented. If any of the teams have the application ready, it can be shown as well.

    I like the idea of showing license costs for the solution on the score board. Let's say the cost is calculated on the servers actually needed/being used at the shootout, but with say 500 clients. Then we of course have the question about operating system licenses. Should it be included, or listed as a separate item? If one team decide to build it based on Linux, the cost should go down, but the reality is that most businesses today still use Windows. Here we need to do some thinking, so it get fair. What about Linux server but windows clients?

  1. 45  Jim Casale  | 7/31/2007 2:24:39 PM

    The big question is where are you going to find a MS developer/admin that would be willing to do it? Do you really think they will try and fail?

    I like the idea but not sure if you can get the other side into the competition.

  1. 46  Randy Smith  | 7/31/2007 2:52:08 PM

    @44 - And the grand finale for the shootout would have each competitor migrate their counterpart's application to their own platform. But wait... maybe that's not fair... Microsoft would just use their magic Application Analyzer Tool to show that the Notes application had little or no usage and would therefore not be a candidate for migration ;-)

  1. 47  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/31/2007 3:18:01 PM

    @45: Yes, you have a point there. But I am sure some developer can be found in some MS forum that would be willing to prove how good his/her choosen platform is?

    Perhaps somewhere here: { Link } (if we can figure out which product(s) that might be applicable...)

    I am sure a small flamebait in a strategic forum/blog would generate some defenders of MS, and then they can be invited to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. :-)

    Give the team a free Lotusphere, perhaps they will even be converted. :-)

  1. 48  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/31/2007 3:25:43 PM

    Comment to myself as well as to Randy (46):

    Perhaps it should instead be a "compare technologies" session, where it still is a "shootout", but more a comparison of how things are done using different technologies. See it as an educational tool for IT managers/professionals, we get to see how the same thing is achieved using different tools/platsforms.

    And IBM has a nice big consulting section, perhaps Ed could find some people there that work with MS products. Even if it would be better to have non-IBM:ers. But I could imagine MS being interested, if the application/scenario is not skewed in favor of Domino. What about having a neutral 3rd party come up with the application specification, based on guidelines IBM and MS agrees on?

  1. 49  Jim Casale  | 7/31/2007 3:37:54 PM

    If it does happen you need to include disaster recovery. After both teams build their systems they use whatever tools they choose to do a backup. Take away the storgae and give them empty drives and see how long it takes to recover. I would volunteer TDP for Domino. With archive style transaction logging not only can the Domino team rebuild the serve in minimum amount of time they can also rebuild it to the point that it was "trashed" (assuming they backup the trans logs at regular interval's).

    Can you tell I love TDP for Domino as much as Domino itself?

  1. 50  Jim Casale  | 7/31/2007 3:38:00 PM

    If it does happen you need to include disaster recovery. After both teams build their systems they use whatever tools they choose to do a backup. Take away the storgae and give them empty drives and see how long it takes to recover. I would volunteer TDP for Domino. With archive style transaction logging not only can the Domino team rebuild the serve in minimum amount of time they can also rebuild it to the point that it was "trashed" (assuming they backup the trans logs at regular interval's).

    Can you tell I love TDP for Domino as much as Domino itself?

  1. 51  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/31/2007 5:13:15 PM

    @All the MS bashers - Have you ever actually laid hands on any of the products you're so casually dismissing? I'm just curious. I've spent time in both camps and as far as I can tell neither is a panacea.

  1. 52  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 7/31/2007 5:49:40 PM

    @51: I don't see that much bashing, most postings are fairly well-balanced IMHO.

    I think it would be a big interest from the Notes community to see how the same application is developed in the two different environments. I would be very interested myself.

    I am sure many of us often get a question from the boss "how would this be done using MS tools", or something.

    As a serious developer, you should know some about other tools available. After a "shootout" like this, I think people will have a much better understanding of what the different tools can and can not do, how the development works, etc.

    A few years ago there was a session comparing (in a "shootout" style) between Domino for Windows and for Linux, where the platforms were compared. It was very interesting.

    The "Lotus vs MS vs Websphere shootout" should perhaps be summarized towards the end of the week, perhaps a 1 hr special session: 15 minute overview, results, etc. 5-10 minute presentation by the teams on what worked, what went wrong, where their tool excelled and where they had problems, followed by a short Q&A session after each team presentation.

  1. 53  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/31/2007 10:50:08 PM

    @52 - What you presented in this comment is not the same kind of chest thumping the other commenters have shown. I just wanted to point out that it's not a black and white issue. I agree that a reasoned and thoughtful side by side comparison would be extremely helpful, but I would hate to see it devolve into a "look how much the others suck" feeding frenzy.

  1. 54  Randy Smith  | 8/1/2007 9:01:59 AM

    @51 - Yes, I have seen their products used in a failed proof-of-concept attempt at recreating two simple Notes workflow apps. These apps required digital signatures for the request/approval workflow as well as presence awareness/instant messaging. A consultant group (partially owned by MS) brought in an MCSE to show my client how *easy* it would be to migrate custom Notes applications to SharePoint. They were given four weeks and couldn't complete the applications to include many of the crtical business requirements (but they were always quick to point out how *nice" the application looked). Their solution included a SharePoint Server (and SharePoint CALs), upgrading MS Office on client workstations to an MS Office bundle that included InfoPath, an SQL Server (and SQL Server CALs), an Exchange Server (and Exchange/Outlook CALs), a Live Communications Server (and Live Communication CALs), and a Certification Server (?) for the digital signatures. Their recommendation for addressing the critical business requirements that couldn't be completed was to ""patch it up" with some .Net programming. Compare this solution with the Lotus Notes/Domino solution they were proposing to replace -- a Domino Server and Lotus Notes Clients w/integrated Sametime.

  1. 55  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 8/1/2007 9:23:13 AM

    @53: I agree, When I suggested a "technical shootout", I was thinking about a side-by-side comparison of the two (later someone suggested three) platforms (Notes/Domino, MS and Websphere). I think this could be one of the coolest and most useful sessions/events at a Lotusphere in many years.

    Basically a more technical extension of "Your Boss loves Micorsoft, where does that leaves you", or what the session was called.

    Ed, do you think IBM would be interested in having Websphere included as well? I think it would be very nice to be able to see the strengths and weaknesses of the different IBM platforms as well.

  1. 56  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 8/1/2007 11:43:54 AM

    @54 that would be a good demo :-)

    @55 doubt we'd want to put WebSphere in the mix -- let's focus on collaboration, since that would be where MS stacks up vs. Lotus.

    I still haven't floated this idea to the Lotusphere content team, but I like it. A lot.

  1. 57  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 8/1/2007 12:17:37 PM

    @54 - Seeing it attempted and attempting it yourself are two different things. To be clear, I'm by no means suggesting that Notes/Domino can easily be replaced with Sharepoint. Microsoft doesn't have anything that can compete head to head with Notes and Domino because Microsoft doesn't have a distributed rich client solution.

    @56 - The first hurdle is choosing a problem that fits both collaboration platforms. If you just want a generic workflow app there is no need to even use Sharepoint. That can be done using any .Net language for the UI and SQL Server on the backend. That's not the message you get from Microsoft, but that's the way it happens down in the trenches. Put another way, Sharepoint has the same set of use cases as Quickr and Connections.

  1. 58  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 8/1/2007 1:15:13 PM

    Was playing around a little with an idea for a score board: { Link }

    Just for fun. :-)