Ed Brill

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1. 1  Dale Cybela http://www.efunds.com | 11/6/2006 7:32:55 PM

   When you say "IE", I am hoping that what you really mean is the browser of choice (of the end user). Some browsers (from other posts) Seem to be incorporating the concept of a button click to close a window ("How about changing the option to be middle-click closes tab? I've gotten so used to that in Firefox that I sometimes try to do it in Notes as well." (Chris Hart on Mary Beth's site)).

   I know (especially since I've been using IE 7) that I right double click a couple of times and get frustated when the "tab" doesn't close in IE7. I wish they would introduce the option ::))

1. 2  Simon Barratt http://apps.fmc.com/blog.nsf | 11/6/2006 7:53:50 PM

   Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

   'nuff said

1. 3  Joydeep Gupta  | 11/6/2006 8:03:24 PM

   Ed,

   I am more interested in learning what this means.

   <Excerpt>

   As most of you know, the Hannover release of Lotus Notes takes Lotus Notes and makes it into a big plug-in to Lotus Expeditor (the IBM version of the Eclipse rich client platform). In doing so, we continue to encounter Lotus Notes features that may or may not have particular value to re-implement in Expeditor.

   </Excerpt>

   Sorry for being daft, but is "the first major commercial collaboration client based on the Eclipse open source framework" same as a plug-in to Lotus Expeditor? The first time I heard about Lotus Expeditor was a few days ago when Volker posted a link to an IBM press release.

   Could you explain a little further?

1. 4  Asad Quraishi http://quad4b.blogspot.com | 11/6/2006 8:48:16 PM

   When you say 'IE' I am hoping you don't mean 'IE' as this wouldn't work on Linux or the Mac. Hannover is supposed to be cross-platform right? And using IE to render when IE is full of security holes (i.e. Nov. 4th's ActiveX vul) doesn't make much sense to me.

1. 5  Henry Bestritsky http://www.binarytree.com | 11/6/2006 8:59:49 PM

   You will pry the double-right click from my cold dead hands!

1. 6  Carl http://www.instant-tech.com/blogs/ctyler.nsf | 11/6/2006 9:08:08 PM

   PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS. Leave double right-click alone. It's removal will make me less productive, and software should be all about making us more productive.

   I am very concerned by the continuing use of IE within IBM apps. It's used in Sametime and now to be used in Hannover. I guess all the posts and comments IBMers have made in the past about IE's lack of security don't apply when running in IBM applications?

1. 7  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 11/6/2006 9:08:39 PM

   I don't give a darn about double right click.

   But embedded IE for HTML rendering? IE? Say it ain't so! Or at least say it's not the only choice!

   -rich

1. 8  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 11/6/2006 9:10:15 PM

   There goes simple and quick admin tasks.

1. 9  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/6/2006 9:23:07 PM

   I knew I was going to get in trouble with the comment about the embedded IE control.

   I do not know at this moment whether it can use Firefox or something else instead, other than that it definitely will use Firefox on Notes/Linux. I will ask and find out what the rest of the Win32/Mac story is.

   @3 I plan to write about Lotus Expeditor in the next few days.

1. 10  Carl tyler http://www.instant-tech.com | 11/6/2006 10:00:28 PM

   @9 I imagine it is like Sametime. Sametime Windows uses IE for rendering, on Linux it users something else.

   I did discover a couple of Sametime client security risks during the Sametime Beta because IE was being used. Fortunately they were reported early enough that IBM was able to address them.

1. 11  Brian Green  | 11/6/2006 10:25:41 PM

   My first thought from your posting was... If the "embedded browser object" is using MSIE, does this weaken the overall security of the Notes client?

   My guess is, not. There is a "sandbox" in the Notes client, and I guess the Eclipse stuff as well. And of course the ECL. And it's probably just using the Operating System's native rendering engine anyway, which is MSIE on Windows.

   Ahh, yes. More techie questions for Orlando.

1. 12  Bruce Elgort http://www.TakingNotesPodcast.com | 11/6/2006 10:47:34 PM

   I found this quote via Google:

   "The right double-click option to close a window has been a part of Notes for a long time. If you are accustomed to this feature (or even if you are not), you might want to enable it. This is a convenient feature of Notes that enables you to close a window by double-clicking with the right mouse button when the cursor is placed on or in the window. There is not too much danger in leaving this option on: Right double-clicking is not really used in too many other programs, so you are unlikely to do it by mistake."

   { Link }

1. 13  Rod Stauffer  | 11/6/2006 11:45:12 PM

   The specific browser used by Eclipse is prescribed based on platform (SWT browser widget on Windows is IE). Isn't that why both Hannover and Sametime 7.5 use IE?

   As for double-right click, I use it all the time in Notes. Don't even think of taking it away...

1. 14  Adam Gartenberg http://www.adamgartenberg.com | 11/6/2006 11:46:36 PM

   @10 - The current plans have us replacing the use of IE in Sametime with the next point release (***official disclaimer - plans subject to change, yada yada yada***)

   As for the topic of this post, I've already voiced my opinion over on Mary Beth's site: "When I first joined IBM (after working in another company that also used Notes), the very first thing I did when I got to my desk was dig through the preferences to find how to enable the right-double-click close on my new Notes account."

1. 15  Rod Stauffer  | 11/6/2006 11:47:48 PM

   D'oh. Hit "Send" a bit too quick. Here's a slightly modified version (between the *):

   The specific browser used by Eclipse is prescribed based on platform (SWT browser widget on Windows is IE). Isn't that why both Hannover and Sametime 7.5 use IE *as the embedded browser*?

   As for double-right click, I use it all the time in Notes. Don't even think of taking it away...

1. 16  Rod Stauffer  | 11/6/2006 11:48:59 PM

   @14: Great news on the unofficial plans (disclaimer noted :-). Thanks for the update.

1. 17  Paul Gagnon  | 11/7/2006 1:08:07 AM

   Some things are sacred. I'm with @5. You'll pry the double-right-click from my cold dead hands clutching my mouse.

1. 18  Olaf Boerner  | 11/7/2006 2:30:27 AM

   It is beyond my imagination that IBM is telling us that they are not able to use their "own software" for HTML rendering.

   Are there any technical reasons for doing that.

1. 19  Peter Wilson  | 11/7/2006 3:45:23 AM

   @18. I'd rather Notes use IE (or Firefox) for HTML rendering. IMHO, Notes has 'sucked' up till now in doing it (and I have plenty of users who say the same)

   Pete

1. 20  Pedro Quaresma  | 11/7/2006 4:12:02 AM

   Even though I use the double-right-click, I am more worried about this IE usage for HTML rendering.

   If I'm not mistaken, Windows Vista will not include IE by default. Does that mean an Hannover user on Vista will need to download & use IE?

1. 21  Hynek Kobelka http://www.pylonware.com | 11/7/2006 4:31:45 AM

   "...so the HTML rendering is much much improved..."

   Thats actually the most important part of your message. You are hitting one of the real problem items with the current notes client here.

   As for the right-double-click, I am with the mob.

1. 22  Alan Bell http://www.fondoo.net | 11/7/2006 4:47:00 AM

   it is certainly the case that it is using the IE rendering engine because that is how the SWT browser object is implemented in Windows right now.

   Here are some bugs raised against SWT for lack of Gecko support:

   https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=72487

   https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=79213

   https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=154124

   it seems that Gecko as a rendering engine is quite possible to include technically, and it should be in the SWT release 3.3, timescale for that is in the plan:

   { Link }

   As Eclipse/SWT started as an IBM project and IBM is a major sponsor of Eclipse I am sure IBM could throw some resources at this if they felt so inclined to get it as a deliverable for Hannover. As the SWT browser widget does actually work and isn't blocking anything much I don't think this is going to happen.

   It would be cool to get double right click support into firefox too!

   @20, there is a difference between the browser application (which is little more than the menu and toolbars) and the rendering engine. Firefox has Gecko as the rendering engine, you can install Gecko without firefox, and I expect Vista will have the rendering engine which the SWT browser widget will use, even if it does not have the IE application installed. (I know nothing about Vista so I could be wrong)

1. 23  Dale Flannery  | 11/7/2006 5:05:10 AM

   IBM could just supply Icodex ARC along with Hannover (after all, it's free!).

   www.icodex.com/pub/vof/blog.nsf/d6plinks/FVOR-6BUCAM

   Hi Ed :-)

1. 24  Linda Pelfrey  | 11/7/2006 6:12:19 AM

   1) It would be ok to remove double-right click as long as the current double right-click was left alone. This being (U.S.) election day, there should be a double-right joke in there somewhere.

   2) What did MB mean about keyboard accessible? Something is keyboard accessible if there is a way to access it via the keyboard. Whether there are one or ten non-keyboard ways of doing something has zero effect on whether functionality is keyboard accessible. Being able to do everything with a keyboard is a great idea but that is different than everything can only be done with a keyboard.

   3) But I agree with @3,4,6,7,... the frightening thing is IE. Partly because I shall be using a Mac and it would be nice to use IBM Notes/Hanover on it but it is not worth giving up a Mac for. But also because, when forced to use Windows, I would be scared to have HTML mail rendered by IE. Experience, and dozens of MS patches, has shown this is a Really Bad Idea. Aesthetically, idea of basing a product on Eclipse - a cross-platform product written in a cross-platform language - and then using one of the more maliagned pieces of M$' software seems wrong.

1. 25  Andrew Pollack http://www.thenorth.com/apblog | 11/7/2006 6:41:12 AM

   That would absolutely drive me over the bend. Admittedly it's a short trip, but a double-right click going away is a major adoption deterrent to me. I'd still use the software if it had other things to offer of course, but it would really really be a painful loss.

1. 26  AJP  | 11/7/2006 6:53:14 AM

   Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

   If it starts with Double Right Click where will it end?

1. 27  Almar Diehl http://www.domino-weblog.nl | 11/7/2006 6:56:25 AM

   Well, Mary-Beth's actual subject is "Right double click to close a window: bye-bye preference?".

   As others have also suggested in their comment, I think it's OK to remove THE PREFERENCE, as long as right double click is enabled by default.....

1. 28  Hawkeye  | 11/7/2006 7:28:58 AM

   Say it ain't so. That's always the first thing I do with a new installation. It is so ingrained, that I find myself doing it in all programs.

1. 29  Axel Janssen  | 11/7/2006 7:51:26 AM

   I think to have learnt in a quick search that in the Ajax Tools Project they are working on embedding mozilla in Eclipse .

   { Link }

   Those add-on project are mostly supported by industry. So an outcome as running software has high probability. Due to the highly modular nature of Eclipse Lotus should reuse the code.

   Actually from my pov its a important advantage for Lotus to reuse functionality implemented in other Eclipse projects.

   From my pov this might result to become way more important than double right click, which isn't a default user setting anyhow. I hope so. Even the "nicest" software community ever invented can't allways get what you guys want.

1. 30  Pedro Quaresma  | 11/7/2006 8:32:37 AM

   @22 Thanks for the information Alan :)

   I tried to research a bit more into Vista and it seems that IE7 will be included by default on it. However, in XP, IE could not be uninstalled, and on Vista it apparently can.

   If so, is it possible that someone, using Hannover on Vista, after uninstalling IE, might not be able to render HTML?

   I know I know, too early to tell, but I just thought I'd contribute with my worries ;) I agree with Linda (@24), I would prefer Hannover to interact with/use IE as little as possible

1. 31  Flemming Riis  | 11/7/2006 8:37:32 AM

   -I agree with Linda (@24), I would prefer Hannover to interact with/use IE as little as possible

   somewhere in the 340k people in IBM there should be a few that could make a html render engine.

1. 32  Adeleida http://www.autumnleaf.it | 11/7/2006 8:56:57 AM

   To look on the IE bright side: I am all for an improvement on rendering, and well, if there is a choice of Firefox that would be awesome, but IE will be a good start. I hope this functionality is somehow going to filter through to the pass-thru HTML feature one can use in the Notes client, not just email rendering.

1. 33  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 11/7/2006 9:01:01 AM

   There is a posting on MBR's site that explains what rendering engine will be used on each platform for the Hannover release. I haven't dug through her archive to find it.

   The responses on Mary Beth's site have gotten pretty ridiculous but it is a little funny in its absurdity. I'd be surprised if Mary Beth bothers to ask our collective opinion again. It comes across like a bunch of preschoolers screeching "DON'T TAKE AWAY MY BLANKIE!!" Get a grip. It's only software.

1. 34  Kerr  | 11/7/2006 9:04:43 AM

   So does anyone actually *know* what the security risks are in using the IE render engine? Are you opening yourself up to all the IE vulnerabilities or is it safe? Frankly it gives me the screaming heebie jeebies.

   I always thought that the decision by the Eclipse project to tie the web render to the platform was a bad idea and I'm glad they seem to be moving away from that.

1. 35  Timothy Briley  | 11/7/2006 9:08:22 AM

   Even when I have my right hand on the mouse, I have my left hand on the keyboard. Hitting ESC to close the current window is so brilliant, I wish all MDI software used it.

   If Notes dropped the right-double-click, couldn't you guys just program your mouse to do it?

1. 36  stephen hood  | 11/7/2006 9:17:33 AM

   @33 Yes they have gotten out of hand Charles. If this was something that had broad architectural/UI implicatations it would be one thing.

   But it's something that could be slipstreamed into a .01 release if people really turn out to miss it as much as they think they will :)

   Count me in for using an embedded Gecko engine across the board. That does have much broader implications/impact on support, documentation etc..

1. 37  Keith Brooks http://www.kbmsg.blogspot.com/ | 11/7/2006 9:30:26 AM

   This sounds suspiciously like an indirect reference to Notes being embedded in a browser to my non-appdev trained mind(although 12+ years of Notes/Domino management goes a long way).

   I would think just rendering a specific email would still make the window or view a notes object with an embedded viewer like jpg.

   If this is the case, then we have a whole other discussion. Does this mean the Notes client will finally go away in favor of a "desktop suite" of apps from IBM?

1. 38  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 11/7/2006 9:55:55 AM

   @37 - Replace "a browser" with "Eclipse" and you're on the right track. I don't foresee a desktop suite, it appears to me that everything is being hosted in Lotus Expeditor. It's still a single client, it's just more broadly functional and takes the place of a suite. That's my take, based on the almost total lack of information we have so far.

1. 39  Ben Rose http://None | 11/7/2006 9:56:33 AM

   @35 - Good point. There's already right double-click software available to add the functionality to other apps, it could quite easily work for Notes too.

1. 40  Tim Rand  | 11/7/2006 9:58:38 AM

   I don't use it. None of the 1600 users at my last company used it and none of the 450 users at my current company use it.

   @5. @25 - haven't you heard that we need to accomodate change? What about when you (or your admin) wanted to install Notes R5 and changed the look and feel of your Notes 4.x users? They had to change didn't they?

   ... AND its a Wndows only feature that doesn't work on other platforms.

1. 41  Neil Agate http://www.asapsites.com | 11/7/2006 10:39:43 AM

   NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !! This is such a useful feature that I've often wondered why other applications (or even Windows) doesn't do it. It woul dbe such a shame to lose it.

   Neil

1. 42  Keith Brooks http://www.kbmsg.blogspot.com/ | 11/7/2006 11:32:26 AM

   @38 Charles I get the Eclipse thing.

   Anyway if we only had ...some... more... info...ED...Lotus Expeditor sounds like the web accelerators, bad name from marketing team, no goody bags for them. LOL

1. 43  Ted Niblett  | 11/7/2006 12:15:52 PM

   Right double-click was off by default in something-dot-oh, and Notes didn't feel like Notes until I turned it back on -- but as I was reviewing this thread, I realized that I only use RDC primarily in read mode, probably because I'm already scrolling with the mouse. In edit mode, when I'm already on the keyboard, it's much more often the Escape key or the now you see it, now you don't Shift-Esc.

   Is Shift-Esc on the chopping block too?

1. 44  Rob Novak http://www.LotusRockStar.com | 11/7/2006 1:13:10 PM

   I live by DRC.

   I DRC customers when they make me mad.

   I did DRC my ex.

   I've tried to DRC my kid's trombone.

   Seriously, I have the ICODEX utility that lets me DRC other applications, since I found myself trying to do so in Notepad and browsers after a while. Now it's part of my history of using a computer for 14 years. Retraining me could be very expensive. :-)

1. 45  David Bell  | 11/7/2006 4:51:52 PM

   @24 - why do you think you would have to give up using a Mac ? Haven't we stated enough that Hannover will run on Mac, and therefore, there will *have* to be an HTML rendering engine for the Mac too ?

1. 46  Brian Green  | 11/7/2006 6:39:26 PM

   @45 - The perception is that Mac clients always trail the Windows (and now Linux) client versions. Today there is no Lotus Notes 7.x client for the Mac (it's in beta). So, the perception is that Mac users will also be trailing in the "Hannover" release.

   With that said, my guess is that the new Eclipse version of Lotus Notes will greatly improve the Mac release schedule.

1. 47  Peter Schittenhelm  | 11/7/2006 11:43:13 PM

   Right click? I have used it all my life (or at least thats what it seems) but I have also observed that people or even whole companies that we migrate from different platforms do not get it and do not use it...get rid of it, unless you really see in usability tests that people actually understand it and see it as an improvement

1. 48  Mick Moignard  | 11/8/2006 1:54:13 AM

   Like most of the responders, I right doubleclick almost everything, and then when it doesn't work, press esc.... Please don't take it away.

   Mick

1. 49  Chris Miller http://www.IdoNotes.com | 11/8/2006 10:18:50 AM

   some of us are more adapt at using the ouse for everything. I know I curse when I go to close in Notes and double right click is not on for some reason.

1. 50  Bill Wood http://www.gsk.com | 11/8/2006 10:33:56 AM

   Go ahead and drop it! Double right-click is a throwback to the early 90's when there were no de facto user interface standards such as we have now. It's much better to throw in the towel and adopt the current practices.

   What do you plan to do, if anything, about F5 and F9?

   - Bill

   (Representing 100,000 GSK users)

   PS. Do you really want to burden Marybeth and the Hannover team with maintaining compatibility to an old Lotus Notes standard or would you rather see them put the effort into a modern responsive user-familiar and friendly interface? Give that team a break please!

1. 51  Kevin Pettitt http://www.lotusguru.com | 11/8/2006 12:48:46 PM

   Like @14, @28, et. al., one of the first things I do when presented with a fresh Notes client at a new client is enable Right-Double-click, followed by restarting Notes, and THEN maybe checking mail. @39, @44, Thanks Ben and Rob for pointing out the existence of a tool to inject this functionality into other Windows apps.

   I don't know how dependent the wider user base is on RDC, but I would imagine that most would become addicted to it if ever told about it. It is something that I would implement by default through policies. But, if its something that can be re-introduced through some other *free* mechanism for power users or other addicts, I suppose I could get on without having it "built-in."

1. 52  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/8/2006 2:18:46 PM

   @50 Bill, I saw your comment on Mary Beth's blog (where, by the way, the F5 discussion has taken place several times... Did you know that F9 is refresh in Outlook now?). As for the double-right-click, I suppose the question is, what's the harm in it being there? (as I anticipate another fifty comments...)

1. 53  Bill http:/flickr.com/photos/zizzy | 11/9/2006 12:19:04 PM

   An inherent problem with double-clicking (or this case double-right-clicking) especially for novice users, is that there is no visual clue that an item is double-clickable. I personally have never used it Notes (I prefer keyboard shortcuts for closing windows) and see no harm in removing the preference and leaving the default behavior. I can't think of any other application I've used which recognizes a double-right-click.

1. 54  Bill Wood http://www.gsk.com | 11/9/2006 2:25:05 PM

   Ed (@52),

   I wouldn't insist on eliminating right double-click, but I wouldn't want to let maintaining compatibility with it impede progress in other areas - for instance, you mentioned that right double-click could cause compatibility issues with the IE plug-in for rendering HTML in e-mail.

   - Bill

1. 55  angela caruso  | 11/9/2006 4:20:10 PM

   I dont use that to close notes windows, but i do use the ESC key all the time.

   taking away the ESC key would be very frustrating, so i imagine taking away any function would not be acceptable to most users.

1. 56  Linda Pelfrey  | 11/10/2006 12:44:01 AM

   @45 I expect a [partial] Mac but I am worried. I may be out of date or plain wrong but my understanding is that Hannover/Linux is ahead of Mac (and I do not see how the number of firms/desktops running an Enterprise version of Linux ( as opposed to folks running a free version ) is a larger market for software sales this year than OS X. So hearing about Hannover/Win using IE is not going to shorten the time until Mac.

   And I admit I am still annoyed from past Lotus & Mac: In the past, I read about the R6 return of the Mac client as a full Mac client. But even getting over Designer/Admin, there was clearly missing functionality, e.g. Java. My understanding is Hannover/Mac still will not support Java UI: e.g. clock applet or graphics applets in a form. I have even heard of Hanover/Mac being incorrectly described a full Mac client.

   And while all the fine folks at IBM have large product/company issues I can't conceive of, as customers it is very frustrating how much "fine print" there is with Lotus products: not only Mac & Java, but hearing about WebDAV support (design elements only), DB2 store in R7 (wait for R8 for production), DXL ("some" supported), HTML/Javascript (but not browser interoperable DOM)... It is safer to ignore the headlines and wait for General Availability software to arrive.

   I am even a bit worried that when Hanover/Mac ships it might not support the current version of OS X (then 10.5) but surely it will.

   So I am eager and hopeful for the Mac client but...

1. 57  Benjamin Bellamy http://www.fiatxul.fr/post/SaveLotusNotesDoubleRightClick | 11/10/2006 4:55:15 PM

   Save the Lotus Notes double right-click !

   Even better, install one on Firefox:

   { Link }

   ;-)

1. 58  jonvon http://jonvon.net | 11/11/2006 1:49:07 PM

   i think the contention that advanced users use the keyboard more than unadvanced users isn't right. i think that people who use the keyboard a lot probably were DOS or UNIX or perhaps mainframe geeks at some point in their techie lives. i'm an advanced Notes user, and i use the mouse a lot. i was never a DOS or UNIX geek.

   on the other hand i don't ever use the double right click. i've been using Notes since version 4.5. ...never used it, probably never will.

   on the other other hand, if this is something no other piece of software does, what is the harm in keeping it around? if there is a significant engineering challenge involved for the eclipse client, to me it probably isn't worth it. (obviously others disagree!) i'd guess the vast majority of our users (who are quite unadvanced) do not use this feature and probably do not even know it exists.

1. 59  Tim Rand  | 11/14/2006 12:33:39 PM

   Was looking at what Redmond is saying and ran across this link talking about backward compatibility:

   { Link }

   Worth consideration in light of how people use/abuse a system.

1. 60  D Grimes  | 11/17/2006 12:51:36 PM

   First thing I change on a fresh notes install is to set right double click to close window. It feels like a different app without it.

1. 61  Deleted  | 1/11/2007 3:42:51 PM

   Deleted - no anonymous comments