Microsoft Monitor: What Price for Communications and Presence

March 8 2005

Microsoft's hype machine kicked into high gear today, trotting out Gates, Raikes, etc. for a point release of Live Meeting, a service pack of Live Communications Server,and an upgrade and rebrand of Messenger into Communicator.  Let's take a look at what Microsoft Monitor had to say:

all that capability could carry a big price tag for many businesses. Office Communicator does need Live Communications Server 2005, for which Microsoft today released a service pack. To get the most bang out of the collaboration features, businesses also would need Office 2003, Outlook (and so Exchange Server 2003), SharePoint Portal Server, SharePoint Portal Services (and so Windows Server 2003) and Office Live Meeting.
How many pieces to that jigsaw puzzle?
Another cost consideration is public connectivity. During second half 2004, Microsoft started making a big deal out of connectivity with public IM networks AIM, MSN and Yahoo!. But there will be a cost--an annual per-user, subscription licensing fee--associated with the public network connectivity. Microsoft partners and, particularly, competitors should watch for layer upon layer of hidden costs associated with a customer deploying Microsoft's 2005 communications and collaboration products.
Not exactly a strong endorsement.

Link: Microsoft Monitor: What Price for Communications and Presence >

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Microsoft  Add/View Comments [22]

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  1. 1  tonyo  | 3/8/2005 6:41:01 PM

    so.. what's IBM's story and cost for public IM from Sametime or Workplace?

  1. 2  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 3/8/2005 7:33:34 PM

    @1 - Funny to see the MS employee set up a strawman but not actually give a response...

    Anyway, I counted 8 MS products necessary for that infrastructure Ed. To be compliant with MS's recommended setups you would need about 4 or 5 physical servers for each separate component and probably multiple Exchange servers depending on your size. I think you also left out a Domain Controller with Active Directory.

    And I could run my directory, IM, email, collaboration SW (quickplace), portal, etc.. on my single iSeries. Or I could get a second iSeries located in another physical location and do true clustering. Oh, and throw in a Linux firewall, dns, dhcp, and/or email gateway on that same box (since we're taking orders)!

  1. 3  Chris Reckling www.lotus.com | 3/8/2005 8:35:45 PM

    Didn't Netscape have a product called "Communicator"? Now on the internet scrapheap... :).

    Chris

  1. 4  Simon  | 3/8/2005 8:47:08 PM

  1. 5  Simon Barratt  | 3/8/2005 8:51:57 PM

    Never mind the products, and the fact that you still can't host your own web conferencing solution (that still surprises me!), just take note at all the pomp and ceremony (and echos!!)

    I mean, dragging in NBC and the producer of The Apprentice, plus a couple of past contestents. The fact that MS have done a deal with NBC to include a LCS based task in the next series of the Apprentice is soooo slick!!! Talk about getting the product name (no doubt it will be made to look awesome on TV) into millions of peoples faces! Now that was a marketing masterpiece!

  1. 6  Ben Rose http://blog.jaffacake.net | 3/9/2005 8:28:59 AM

    As my report after a recent Gartner teleconference said...

    "whilst MS were a little ahead on presence integration in areas like MS Office, they were at least a year behind on other strategies like conference integration. Concern was expressed about MS support for hardware devices and lack of OS support in general, customers being stuck with Windows."

    { Link }

  1. 7  tonyo  | 3/9/2005 8:53:41 AM

    @2 - I don't disagree there's lots of hardware/software to make this work. But many customers even if they do a desktop hardware or Server refresh every 3 or 4 years - will get the pieces they need by default (Outlook, AD, Win2003 etc)

    My smart ass point question is: - If you are a Lotus customer and you want to do secure IM with a partner /vendor / customer - how do you do it?

  1. 8  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 3/9/2005 9:09:03 AM

    I guess we see things differently! { Link }

    The customers I've talked to are showing a pretty clear preference for being able to plug in only those platform components that deliver actual value to them. Don't need a new portal solution? Fine-- don't buy one. Ditto the other components.

    @2: I don't think this is right. Chris, can you explain why you think that you'd have to have 32 servers (8 server roles, 4 physical servers each) for a full implementation of MS' platform? Sure, maybe for 250,000 users, but c'mon; a single properly sized LCS server can easily handle 10-15K concurrent users; Live Meeting is hosted, so it has no server footprint.

    @3: yeah, I thought the same thing. Netscape Communicator wasn't even a good product :)

    @5: there's a lot of value in hosted conference services like Live Meeting, namely the easy ability to set up and manage conferences with users outside the firewall. Not every org wants to be on the hook for maintaining their own conferencing services.

  1. 9  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 3/9/2005 9:18:25 AM

    @7 Easy, you use SIP to securely communicate with Sametime's SIP gateway. We (IBM) are doing it with several partners and customers today. Not everything is as you remember it when you left. :-)

  1. 10  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 3/9/2005 9:32:57 AM

    @7 - My point exactly about the strawman. You know Lotus doesn't do that so you focus on that minute point that MS JUST now enabled. If there is another Lotus IM customer we could use the SIP web standard to connect our two servers. MS, like normal, generally likes to use non-standards for their protocols.

    @8 - You misread me. I meant a total of 4 or 5 physical servers. Didn't mean that you needed 4 or 5 for each component. Sorry about that.

  1. 11  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 3/9/2005 10:31:28 AM

    @7: but it's not a strawman! Right now, if you want to communicate *with customers* using IM, the reality is that most orgs are using "personal" IM clients on the desktops. No retention, no archiving or compliance, and little security. With PIC, the org can meet its retention/compliance requirements, provide better security, *and* control who users can talk to, using a managed client. This is a big win.

    @10: let's see. Assume that Active Directory is already deployed, since it probably is at most of the customers that will be considering this. That leaves us with 1 LCS 2005 server, 1 Exchange server, and 1 SharePoint Portal server. (I don't count Windows SharePoint Services boxes separately, since that role is almost always colocated with file/print or app servers because the WSS bits are free with Windows Server 2003).

  1. 12  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 3/9/2005 10:55:07 AM

    @11 - is PIC actually shipping now? What's involved in setting it up? How realistic is it to pay $13/user?

  1. 13  Tom Nichols http://www.TomsRant.com | 3/9/2005 11:11:46 AM

    @11 you forgot the SQL server - I don't think you want to install LCS and MS SQL on the same box. Generally not a good idea and the instalation documentation recommends against it.

  1. 14  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net/bensblog.nsf | 3/9/2005 12:05:06 PM

    I still rate Groove in the collaboration/awareness/IM category. Particularly in the retention/compliance areas.

    OK, it doesn't use any standards except it's own, but it works..very well, through firewalls.

  1. 15  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 3/9/2005 12:16:58 PM

    @13 - Exactly. I believe @11 proved my point. AD Server, LCS Server, Exchange server, SharePoint server. Those are 4 servers (like I said). SQL server makes it 5. Depending on the size of the shop you may need 1 or more extra Exchange servers. Still no comparison to my single iSeries solution.

    @11 - If you want to argue semantics, a strawman is "point of view that was created in order to be easily defeated in argument". Lotus doesn't have a connector with the public IM infrastructures and that's a well-known fact. That's why it was brought up because it easily wins that argument. PIC may or may not even be shipping yet and it's another CAL for companies to purchase. Up until how recently would MS have been in the same boat with IBM as far as that goes? How many customers are embracing that technology?

  1. 16  tonyo  | 3/9/2005 12:23:01 PM

    @9 - alan -I was aware of the GW, but I checked here { Link }

    and it's not there. - this was more my point. Sametime works well - I used it for years, but one of the big pieces with LCS 2005 is the federation capability and secure access between companies ( with LCS servers) and now with the connectors to AOL/yahoo etc.

    Shouldn't IBM be instead promoting that capability ( and other stealth capabilities) instead of throwing stones?

    (I'm kind of grumpy this morning :)

  1. 17  Simon Barratt  | 3/9/2005 12:25:34 PM

    @8 Hosted meeting offering certainly has value. I believe a larger corporation is better serveed by hosting their own. This allows them to customise the look and feel to nth degree, and really control how it is used.

    We have done some simple customisations, and more are planned.

    { Link }

  1. 18  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 3/9/2005 12:44:30 PM

    @16, what has you grumpy... your mail down again? :-)

  1. 19  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 3/9/2005 12:58:49 PM

    @16 - If you go to the Product Info section from your link, there is an IBM Lotus IM & WC section with a link to a datasheet. See the text below from the data sheet stating that a GW is available. Could be a little more clear or have it as a feature on the homepage, but they do have a little blurb about it in the product data sheet.

    ftp://ftp.lotus.com/pub/lotusweb/instantmessagingandwebconferencing/data_sheet.pdf

    Instant messaging gateway

    The Lotus Instant Messaging and Web

    Conferencing server supports Session

    Initiation Protocol (SIP) for Instant

    Messaging and Presence Leveraging

    Extensions (SIMPLE) for the IBM Lotus

    Instant Messaging Gateway. SIMPLE

    permits the secure exchange of realtime

    information with users based on

    their e-mail addresses—increasing

    reach to your extended value chain.

  1. 20  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 3/9/2005 3:31:48 PM

    @12: I don't think MS has publicly announced the ship date, but I might have missed it. As to the CAL price: some customers will find $13 a good price for the value they derive, others won't. A lot of it is specific to industry; for example, the healthcare and fin serv verticals HAVE to have compliance, no matter what, or people go to jail. Other areas don't care as much.

    @13: not exactly. If you're using the Standard Edition of LCS, the MSDE runtime is what gets installed, on the same box. If you're using Enterprise Edition, which is what offers all the high-end compliance features, then you should probably be using a separate SQL instance.

    @14: I used Groove 2.x extensively for a project involving about 30 people spread across five or six continents. It did indeed traverse firewalls well, but it was fairly slow on my laptop, and I had a hard time persuading some of the team members to install Yet Another Client on their machines. I haven't looked at 3.x; it may have improved the resource consumption issue.

    @15: at the risk of beating the dead horse, I disagree. Tradeoff: would you rather have a single multi-tool or a toolbox full of more specialized tools? Different orgs will make different choices here, particularly as the MS and IBM platforms mature. One size doesn't always fit all-- something that MS has finally realized as they reposition Exchange.

  1. 21  Larry  | 3/10/2005 5:00:54 AM

    @18: That's funny, I don't care who you are ... that's funny.

  1. 22  BAO  | 1/3/2007 10:20:33 AM

    Can we install Exchange 2007 server on same server where LCS 2005 server Standard edition is installed ?

    Thanks for any answer.