Today´s Lotus Notes Migration Workshop for Microsoft partners

February 7 2005

Well, after all the effort that went into confirming my registration, the least I could do was show up downtown today.

Before morning, I'll have three different versions of this trip report.  There's the blog version, the version I'm sending to the instructor and Microsoft with feedback, and the version I'll send around to my colleagues at IBM.  Hopefully I can keep the various audiences straight.

I think it was a little uncomfortable for all involved for me to be in this class.  The instructor, Steve Bryant, recognized me right away (though I have to admit, the same wasn't true in reverse -- he looks nothing like his SCA class photo).  At least one of the class attendees did, too.  Others seemed to squirm in their seats a bit when I introduced myself.  This led to my decision not to return to the class after lunchtime...the afternoon materials (a lot of Notes 101 material) weren't going to teach me much, though I'm sure the discussion might have been interesting.  It seemed to me that the class would be more productive for those attending if I wasn't there to inhibit conversation.  That's not the kind of competitive guy I am, and as such, I found a seat in the IBM mobility center (same building, different floor) and got some work done.

As for the part of the class I attended, it was the most critical 90 minutes of the agenda anyway.  This was the section where the market opportunity was explained.  It's important to note that Steve is not a Microsoft employee, and he seemed quite uncomfortable with some of the material he was asked to deliver in this section of the presentation.  Some of it was inaccurate -- not as inaccurate as Mr. Gates, but out of context, "spin", or downright incorrect.  Steve indicated he was willing to take feedback on this, in the interest of wanting to be professional and accurate.

The marketing overview section of the seminar was 90 slides long.  I assume they're not online anywhere as they were marked "Microsoft confidential".  It's visually interesting to note that there are two distinct sections to the particular PPT -- the analysis of IBM, which was basically bulleted text, and the explanation of the Microsoft strategy, which had flashy graphics, animation, builds, etc.

The IBM analysis section was, of course, interesting to observe from the perspective of the shoe being on the other foot.  I sat quietly and made notes; since Steve didn't create the slides, there wasn't much point in correcting him live.  I did cough a few times when a particular report was highlighted; this goes to a point I made a few weeks ago about how good Microsoft is at staying "on message", even when the message might not be considered credible.  I also was surprised at some of the supporting data points.  The assertion was made in the materials that more of the sessions at Lotusphere 2005 (83) were about Workplace WebSphere and J2EE, vs. 74 on Domino and Notes.  Putting aside the fact that this is incorrect analysis, it's also not necessarily meaningful.  There was only one session on Office Live Communications Server at TechEd 2005 -- out of what, like 1000 sessions?  In the case of Lotusphere, product maturity plays a factor, as do hundreds of other data points.  I don't want to do the math for Microsoft here and represent what I think the balance was -- for certain, though, it doesn't support their conclusion.

The rest of the day was a series of labs -- for some reason, I didn't think i'd get much out of the lab on installing the Lotus Notes client.  I did stop by again at the end of the day to see if anything interesting had come up.... unsurprisingly, nobody really wanted to talk to me :).  I won't be able to make day two tomorrow due to personal reasons, but Steve was kind enough to give me the materials to review.

Overall reaction on my part -- 1) Not really new material, just being propogated to a wider audience; 2) despite MS's general FUD that "nobody uses Notes anymore", every partner in the room worked with Notes shops, but 3) that means they think there is opportunity to migrate those Notes shops -- and some of them were quite vocal about that during introductions.  I don't know that there is really ROI in doing so, though MS's marketing slides tried to explain some of the 'business reasons' for a migration -- they were tenuous at best to me, but of course I'm a wee bit biased.

The bottom line is, the race is heating up -- as often happens in mature markets.  The good news on our side is that almost every analyst has come out post-Lotusphere endorsing IBM's Workplace vision and strategy, including how Notes/Domino fit within it.  There might have been opportunity here for MS partners while the message in market was less-than-clear, but now that IBM is on offense, not so.  There'd have to be one heck of a business case to spend all that money trying to use 14 products to reproduce the functionality of one market-leading, mature, complete solution..

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Microsoft  Add/View Comments [26]

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  1. 1  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 2/7/2005 10:21:09 PM

    Thanks for the write up. What I find most interesting are your comments about them squirming when you introduced yourself, and then later them not wanting to talk to you. Reversing the situation, I know that if I had an the opportunity to talk to an MS competitive person I'd want to ask dozens of questions. My first thought, they don't have a leg to stand on in conversations with you.

  1. 2  Jerry G.  | 2/7/2005 11:59:29 PM

    So do you think it's worth attending the session in Atlanta?

  1. 3  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 2/8/2005 4:04:32 AM

    With regard to this: "Office Live Communications Server at TechEd 2005" I should point out Microsoft have a seperate 2 day developers event for LCS Server. I've been the last 2 years and it is a well attended event with good content, although as with any event held by the vendor a slight marketing spin which tries to imply none of this technology has ever exited in the world before (which lots of attendees seem to believe). But I haven't seen an IBM Lotus Instant Messaging and Web Conferencing developers day?

  1. 4  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 2/8/2005 6:31:53 AM

    What is good news for Lotus/IBM about these sessions is that Microsoft is acknowledging Notes/Domino exists. Microsoft has always been very good at not mentioning their competition in slides and presentations etc. Why? because if you mention that competition exists any good evaluator will go look at their offerings too. Someone evaluating Exchange vs Domino can only be good for Lotus.

  1. 5  Simon Barratt  | 2/8/2005 8:27:35 AM

    Hey Ed,

    For the purpose of shoring up my pro-Lotus arsenal, would you be so kind as to list the 14(!!!) products that MS offer to compete with the Domino offering. That is one hell of a number, which I would like to use, but could do with understanding how you get to it!

    Thanks,

    Simon

  1. 6  Mike Lazar  | 2/8/2005 8:45:00 AM

    Ed -- As for ROI, there is almost never a ROI justification for a move, either from Exchange to Domino or Domino to Exchange. The conversion costs, training, etc., simply destroy any possibly chance of getting a return. The only time I have ever seen it even come close to being justified is with a shop running versions from 5+ years ago on hardware older than my children. Sure, that's a rare event, but we happen to have discussed one recently (downtown icon). I'm still working on them, but it looks like if I get the business, it will be managing their new, wrong version of email...

  1. 7  Liam Colvin  | 2/8/2005 9:14:07 AM

    Odd. I was there and while we were all amused by Mr. Brill's presence, but we weren't "squirming".

    The more important aspect of the class was not the marketing slides at the beginning. It is the app migration materiel presented on day 2. I wish Mr. Brill had hung around for that. We would have been glad to have him!

  1. 8  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com/web.nsf/d6plinks/DOMM-68LF5A | 2/8/2005 9:40:50 AM

    @7 - fair point. It would have been interesting to see how to migrate applications from Lotus Notes to Exchange.

    ---* Bill

  1. 9  Tim Latta  | 2/8/2005 9:43:57 AM

    I'll second (and third) Liam and Wild Bill on wanting to see how to migrate applications from Lotus Notes to Exchange.

  1. 10  Ports http://mrports.blogspot.com/ | 2/8/2005 9:55:03 AM

    @5 - Here is my crack on the list Ed would use (I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong :-)

    1. Windows Server 2003

    2. Active Directory 2

    3. Exchange Server 2003

    4. Sharpoint Services Technology

    5. Sharepoint Portal Server

    6. MS SQL Server

    7. Biztalk 2003

    8. Outlook 2003

    9. IIS

    10. MS Office 2003

    11. Visual Studio

    12. Infopath

    13. Office Live Communication Server 2005

    14. MS Office Live Meeting

    Close?

  1. 11  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 2/8/2005 10:11:41 AM

    @2 - Jerry drop me an e-mail? I am in ATL as well.

    @8 and @9 - oh come on, we all know how easy it is. Did you not read the MS publication on how they easily moved a couple of the notes.net sandbox apps over and how 95% of Notes shops never do anything more than what is shipped in the templates?

  1. 12  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 2/8/2005 11:05:02 AM

    @7 maybe you didn't see the eye contact I did when I introduced myself yesterday...two people definitely had a bit of the look of surprise...

    anyway, I would have loved to have stayed for today, but personal commitments precluded it. I do have the class materials here, and there's not a lot new to them -- I've seen the Casahl tool, the GaryDev demos, etc. My general attitude is they are still focused on too narrow a set of Notes applications, and that the whole point of the application analyzer is to narrow the scope of a migration discussion. I've been in plenty of accounts where MS has funded someone like yourself to come in, do some trial app migration, and then hit the wall because these tools won't handle field-level security, offline apps, backend database integration, etc.

    You're welcome to share your thoughts.

    @10 etc. on the 14 apps -- I'd pull out Active Directory (not truly an app) but include the Messenger client. Also Biztalk is 2004 not '03.

  1. 13  Liam Colvin  | 2/8/2005 11:34:30 AM

    @12 No, I didn't see the eye contact, but everyone I talked to were not overly agitated, so take that for what it's worth.

    As to the complexity of the application and the overall compatibility of MS apps to replacing it: <shrug>.

    It's something of a moot point with most management level decision makers. Quite a few applications in Notes rapidly outscale the database backend and become a point of failure rather than a business enabler. In many ways, similiar to (though not identical to) the issues of Access in a corporate environment. If you base all your business processes on an app that is of Notes age and backend limitations, you will eventually have to scale up to something like DB2.

    If you do that, the answer presents itself: does it make more sense to move it to DB2 or SQL Server (or IIS or Websphere, you get the idea). Then you have to decide on the interface based on that decision.

    Notes (in it's infancy) grew organically from the department level up into the corporate structure. It was never meant (in my observation, anyway) to replace dedicated CRM, database, web portals or similar systems.

    Anyway, your mileage may vary...

  1. 14  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 2/8/2005 11:45:19 AM

    @13 - wouldn't quarrel with most of what you've said here. Part of the reason that Domino 7 will run on DB2 optionally is to address this...though I didn't understand why the MS materials keep insisting that this means Domino is "running on Workplace"... same database engine <> same server. And FWIW IBM Workplace Collaboration Services runs on Oracle as well (and in 2.5, on SQL Server) which is never mentioned in the MS materials.

  1. 15  Steve Doinidis  | 2/8/2005 12:35:55 PM

    @10 - My read on what's required on the IBM side is:

    1. Workplace

    2. WAS (may be packaged w/Workplace)

    3. IHS (ditto)

    4. TAM (ditto)

    5. Portal Server (ditto?)

    6. Some kind of snap-in for WSAD

    Upshot? I think the migration path from Notes will involve significant curves regardless of the destination because the back end infrastructure is new in both cases. IBM has an edge as far as integration is concerned because they own both products and MS needs to keep this in mind.

  1. 16  Chris Reckling www.lotus.com | 2/8/2005 12:49:13 PM

    @15 - The only migration you'll hear about from IBM is Exchange to Domino. Many customers will choose to stay on Domino and implement IBM Workplace products, too.

    Chris

    (yes, from Lotus)

  1. 17  Duffbert http://www.twduff.com | 2/8/2005 12:54:13 PM

    @13: Liam, I have an issue with your statement:

    It's something of a moot point with most management level decision makers. Quite a few applications in Notes rapidly outscale the database backend and become a point of failure rather than a business enabler. In many ways, similiar to (though not identical to) the issues of Access in a corporate environment. If you base all your business processes on an app that is of Notes age and backend limitations, you will eventually have to scale up to something like DB2.

    Building an accounts payable system in Notes isn't a proper use of the tool. Building electronic workflows that feed into an accounts payable system is. And that's not an app that is going to quickly outscale the database backend and become a point of failure.

    Using the generic "quite a few applications in Notes" is the same technique Microsoft used in their Notes to .NET conversion whitepaper that I analyzed for e-Pro magazine. It's a deceptive statement in that it makes general assumptions about everyone's Notes environment, and it's not backed up by any solid statistics.

    { Link }

  1. 18  Chris Whisonant  | 2/8/2005 1:02:12 PM

    @15 - was about to post something like that too. 14 products IS an aweful lot for that level of integration. But don't forget in your list that we may be running Domino, so that would mean having:

    - IM server (apparently integrated with WP - great job IBM!)

    - Server software (of your choice not MS only)

    - Client software (may be OL 2003, Notes, DWA, etc..)

    - Office application (this was in the MS list as a must, but you could have OpenOffice or use the Workplace "xml" tools to edit M$ office doce)

    - Teamroom could possibly work for basic sharepoint competition, but there is an IBM product that directly competes

    - The big thing is that we have our own directory, web server, database backend (nsf), and application server/dev tools built-in with the mail server. No additional hardware needed to run each piece separately.

    Oh, and I believe MS is getting closer to actually being able to cluster decently...

  1. 19  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 2/8/2005 1:03:02 PM

    @16 - Thanks Chris for saying this before I could :)

  1. 20  Steve Doinidis  | 2/8/2005 1:34:59 PM

    @16 & 19 - Bravo -- a response both graceful and disingenuous :-). Care to provide any comments on the infrastructure changes are involved with choosing to stay on Domino and implementing IBM Workplace products?

  1. 21  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 2/8/2005 2:21:41 PM

    @20 I'm not Chris nor Ed, but I have to jump on this one. You (and perhaps all of MS) certainly don't understand IBM Workplace. There are NO changes needed in your Domino environment. If you want to install IBM Workplace in addition to Domino, you can. You can continue to use the Domino directory if you wish. The two IM communities will work together. You can surface Domino applications in the Domino Application portlet. You can surface Domino mail and calendar. You don't have to make changes. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Oh I know, because each time MS makes changes you do, so that must be what you are used to. Wait, I will admit to one thing so that you don't think I am covering things up. To use Notes in the new Workplace Client Technology you will have to use Notes 7 beta 3 or greater.

  1. 22  Steve Doinidis  | 2/8/2005 4:42:12 PM

    @21 - Hi, Alan.

    Note to Ed: I'm happy to participate in a forum like this as long as we keep the disparaging remarks to a minimum if they're not meant in fun.

    Do you believe that WebSphere and Domino will persist as separate product lines? I don't, given the effort that's going into the tighter integration of WAS with the Tivoli product line. It wasn't that long ago that Tivoli was a separate suite and people (me included) cursed such features as TEC. How long is it going to be before TAM is available directly for JAAS calls? Isn't that scheduled for this summer?

    Call me crazy, but I happen to believe that it's quite logical to port Notes completely to Java and market it as a WAS app. I've had some big cients that have been trying to retire Notes/Domino for some time because of the hassle of supporting it as a platform within a platform, with its own unique authN, authZ and scripting engine. I'd love to hear some comments on this :-).

    I'd also like to note that some of the products mentioned in comment 10 cover transaction processing, which Domino does not support without WAS.

  1. 23  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 2/8/2005 4:51:50 PM

    @22 Steve

    It is about using the right tools for the job and Domino should never be used for Transaction Processing as is. It can easily sit on top of any relational back end though to handle things like security and workflow.

  1. 24  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 2/8/2005 5:18:51 PM

    @22 Hi Steve. So did my post help you better understand that you don't need "infrastructure changes if you choosing to stay on Domino"?

  1. 25  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 2/8/2005 5:18:51 PM

    @22 Hi Steve. So did my post help you better understand that you don't need "infrastructure changes if you choosing to stay on Domino"?

  1. 26  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 2/8/2005 5:39:56 PM

    @22 - Steve, this "WebSphere will take over Domino" line sort of disappeared from the vernacular a long time ago. There are announced plans for Domino 7, 7.x, and 8, with general commitments to a 9 and beyond. Tighter integration doesn't mean the products go away, it just means tighter integration. Like, you know, SharePoint and Windows Server. Or is SharePoint going away and just hasn't been announced yet?