Notes 7.0.2 for Macintosh beta 2 posted

November 15 2006

Since I enrolled about 30 edbrill.com readers into the Notes 7 beta for Macintosh, wanted to make sure all were aware that there is an updated beta build of the Notes 7.0.2 Mac client now posted.  Beta sites who have downloaded report that it is much faster than the first beta (and also faster than 6.5.x for Mac).  I'm not signing up any new beta sites, but if you are already enrolled, be sure to surf on over and download the latest.

Ed Brill Chicago, IL USA Category:  Lotus  Add/View Comments [43]

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  1. 1  Bruce Elgort http://www.TakingNotesPodcast.com | 11/15/2006 6:38:37 PM

    Woo hoo! I know what I am testing this weekend! Thanks for the update Mr. Brill.

  1. 2  Colin Williams http://www.guttedgeek.com | 11/15/2006 11:48:46 PM

    Sweet...downloading now. Interestingly enough, I wasn't signed up for the beta and just used my regular IBM id...down it comes!

  1. 3  Patrick McAllister http://www.tomservo.com | 11/16/2006 5:53:58 AM

    Any plans that you know of for a Mac Admin or Designer client?

  1. 4  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/16/2006 6:25:10 AM

    @3 no plans.

  1. 5  David Leedy http://www.lotusnotebook.com | 11/16/2006 8:21:43 AM

    Are there plans for a admin/Designer client for the Mac or Linux in the Hannover code base?

  1. 6  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 11/16/2006 8:27:10 AM

    @2 - Me too... :)

  1. 7  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/16/2006 9:47:08 AM

    @5 Mac -- no. Linux -- The possibility exists post Notes/Domino 8, but no plans announced or committed.

  1. 8  Lukas Karrer  | 11/16/2006 1:44:52 PM

    Ed, thanks for the update!

    I have been working with the new Beta all day now. Works like a charm. The only thing which is missing is the mac specific contextual menu on right-click. Do you know where I could deposit this feedback?

    lukas

  1. 9  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 11/16/2006 8:49:29 PM

    I hate to make this place stink. But could Lotus not get this done already? How long has it been to get this right. You all want to gloat that Lotus is so much better than Outlook and Exchange, but has not the Client for Exchange for MacOSX been out for years now and works just fine? So it has it's issues but at least its out and Microsot supports it. You don't want to ever call IBM for support for the Lotus Client on Mac. The ussual answer is no answer.

    @3 & @5 That would mean they(IBM/Lotus) actually commited to Linux on every IBM desktop like they said 3 years ago, but in reality Lotus is so in bed with Microsoft that they don't see the need to support another platform other than Windows. Funny how they complain, they being Ed, about how much Microsoft is the great satan, but the only platofrm they seem to be able to create anything for is Windows. It just seems odd to me that in is the case?

    I am sure Ed will have something to say like the bulk of the desktops are Windows. Oh ok. Then why was there this huge push inside IBM to get us all to like Linux on the servers and the desktop? Why did IBM produce the Power G5 chip for Apple but made no investment to use them @ IBM or make them more acceptable since that would have increased G5 sales and increased the Apple orders for G5s and....oh you get the picture.

    I see IBM as a great company, and I respect Lotus and Ed, they have a great story, but the all over the map answers that are not answers is confusing. We like Linux, we don't support Linux on 50% of our apps we sell? Lotus Notes for Linux could not be any harder to install and more one flavored and not ready for prime time, you want to call something helf baked.....Lotus Notes for Linux is half baked.

    Lotus Designer and Admin clients should have been on Linux and MacOSX years ago and for that matter so should have iSeries Client Access, but that's another blog. I would love for IBM to really to put up or shut up when it comes to MacOSX and Linux. More company's would move to Linux if they had the option but right now they don't. Why didn' you make the client as portable as the Server? You did put a bunch of other crap in the Windows Server that didn't need to be there but we can cover that later. Why you would support Microsoft is beyond me when it's not one of your core OS's?

    IBM fosters the inability for anyone to move off of Windows by not giving us what we ask for and again to wrap this up, Lotus Notes for MacOSX is late, so late it's not even funny. I think it's great that they have beta 2 out, but wasn't it due in Sept 2006?

  1. 10  Mike Brown  | 11/17/2006 2:28:56 AM

    @9

    Bye, bye, troll boy.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 11  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 11/17/2006 11:17:40 AM

    @9 - That rant was completely off the mark and uncalled for. It's full of inaccuracies. I'm all for slagging Lotus and IBM but do it with facts, not opinion and conjecture.

  1. 12  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 11/17/2006 11:35:26 AM

    Let's cool it a bit. I think David's just a little bit upset at the moment:

    { Link }

  1. 13  stephen hood  | 11/17/2006 12:05:05 PM

    "I hate to make this place stink"

    No you don't.

    Been using the MAC OS client for years at our work. Both our CUSTOM APPS and mail, calendaring etc work fine and unlike MS, IBM keeps improving their Mac software and Eclipse based world will only accelerate that.

    IE for the Mac where art thou? MS Office is next as Apple dominates more and more of the consumer space and improves their own office apps. But keep your blinders on. MS likes to milk things that way. Then pull the rug from under their competitors.

    At least IBM gives me a choice to have Linux. You forgot about the years of server support for Linux that FOSTERED the USE of Linux. The server HAD to happen first to break the lock-in. And now a Linux client is available. Pretty damn good start as well. As if a company with the number of products IBM carries can transition and test them all in one fell swoop..it is a multi-year project - although in an Eclipse-based world that cross-platform timing gap will drop dramatically.

    ..the big picture is what's important - if you can't see that then that's your loss. Enjoy your alternative..and not your alternativeS.

    From your own blog..

    "Ok so I said I would find things that Exchange did badly. It does not support Mac or Linux using OWA. If you need to use OWA from a Mac or Linux you are up the turd creak without a paddle. You can’t even use IE for Mac to get it to work and Entourage is just a joke and constantly has problems connecting via the Mac to Exchange.

    So when my wife whom is in school and the school gives her an OWA to get her mail there since she works there too sehe can’t from home since we are all using Macs. So there is one tick for you aginst the all mighty Exchange. No really support for anything other than Windows and IE6."

    That's your future. Enjoy it. It's not going to change. In fact it's going to get worse as Apple gets more and more penetration. We've replaced our windows machines at home with Macs and so are many other people. MS will only increase the friction as a counter measure. The iPod halo effect is in full swing.

    I guess you forgot to mention those Exchange issues here. I thought you were saying something else about how MS supports and makes their products work on the Mac. No thanks I think I'll stick with someone and something that actually *does* work (with annoyances) and gives me the choice of multiple platforms on the server and client.

    David it's too bad you fail to understand Eclipse and therefore Hannover. It really is.

    Your going to miss out on even more choice in the future.

    Notes is already more consistent and usable than Outlook. Hannover will only consolidate it's superior usability.

    Tabs anyone? Oh sorry that's only IE7. Is that available for the Mac?

    People often confuse eye candy with usability. Hannover will give them the eye candy to end that confusion and the plug-in architecture to extend it in ways that MS won't be able to keep up with. Think firefox extension model (that are signed for security) and the ecosystem that portends. Roll your own, free and commercial.

    Good luck hope it works out..but personally I think your missing the big picture. But that's your choice...not IBM's fault.

    They are spending millions if not billions to give their customers choices - because that's the real world we live in - and they recognize it. MS only believes in their world and screwing everyone else that tries to change that.

    We have macs, Linux and windows. Please provide an alternative platform to Notes that provides that breadth and depth of coverage - as well as including web 2.0 application development.

    It would really be in your own best interest to try and understand Eclipse and what the implications of it are for the entire Lotus platform. Really it would. Trust me - your time would be better spent first understanding than just screaming.

    Otherwise you just end up looking like a troll..instead of someone just frustrated things aren't happening quickly as they would like. The good news is with IBM at least you have chance of getting what you want and with MS you have slim to none. My bets on none.

    MS sees their growth in the home entertainment business and Apple is in the way. Every dollar you send their way (buy a PS3 instead) will be used to try and crush Apple and therefore your investment in your macs. And that includes both personal and business aspects of any investments.

    Before the iPod MS didn't care enough about Apple to actively increase the friction..now they do. Dropping IE was the start. Apple is now a threat to their larger ambitions - previously it was an annoyance.

    Big difference.

    Like I said expect support to get worse not better for the mac - despite what their marketing department will say.

    Watch what people do not what they say.

  1. 14  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 11/17/2006 2:10:42 PM

    @10

    Troll Boy? Is that all you have? Troll Boy? I have been a 12 year user of Lotus. I converted Office Vision systems to CC Mail and Lotus years ago. I sold Lotus to customers. I am as much a Lotus supporter as anyone.

    I am the Founder and Leader of the Lotus Users Group in Denver and Colorado. Troll Boy. I don't think so. I am honest and I think I am telling the truth. I think they have dropped the ball when it comes to Linux and MacOSX and the uncalculated choices internally over the past few years.

    Call me mean or "Troll Boy" but I don't think I am saying anything that no one is thinking who is open minded. Only thing is I have the stones to jump on Ed's site and say them.

    Is Ed going to get mad? Maybe?

    Is this going to make some Hard Core Cool Aid drinking Lotus fans all upset and call someone names? You already have your answer.

    Seeing as how I have said them before to many IBMers and Lotus employees over the past few years. I have become more vocal and more passionate in the years past now that I have a firm grip of the technology and the market around the US and inside of IBM.

    Look at all the IBM employees running Linux and CodeWeaver's CrossOver to get Lotus Notes and others on Linux. The numbers are far larger than you all think.

    Thats all, if you don't like my comments post what is wrong with them but take the school yard route and call me troll boy. Have the ability to make a point. So as I see it you called me and idiot, you can do anything you like, but it makes you look like the only point you had was that I was an idiot? For that matter you may be right, but you did nothing to prove I was an idiot, and yet I have been able to make my point and you have nothing but Troll Boy? Thanks for you deeply insightful comments that obviously came from a Lotus Lemming. See how easy it is to just label people.

    You called me Troll Boy....of which I am not, but ok, and I called you a Lemming. Without any justification on your part. Show up next time ready yo make a point or don't post anything. I expect more from Ed's readers.

  1. 15  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 11/17/2006 2:12:18 PM

    @ Ben

    No just bored and was expecting Lotus for Mac 7.0.2 in Sept?

  1. 16  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/17/2006 2:26:59 PM

    @David,

    At Lotusphere 2006, in the Mac BoF, it was communicated that there was a possibility that the Mac 7.0.2 client would lag behind the rest of the 7.0.2 release. It wasn't what IBM had hoped, but it is what happened. So far, those who have actually taken the time to beta test it and provide feedback have found the beta to be high quality and faster than the 6.x Mac client. OK it wasn't done on schedule, that doesn't mean it has been abandoned.

    I welcome all kinds of professional discourse in the interaction that takes place on edbrill.com. You might want to consider how the tone of your comments is taken by other readers, especially non-native English speakers. You may be proud that you have the "stones to jump on [this] site and say them", but from what I read in your comments here and elsewhere, I see nothing but inflammatory language and goading. So to Ben's point, you may in fact have answered your own question.

  1. 17  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 11/17/2006 2:39:36 PM

    @13

    As for the first part of your comments. I don't understand them, they are all over the place and even with my ADHD I am having trouble making heads or tails of them. It prolly more me than it is you. Stephen you are very articulate in your post.

    1. I use a Mac at home. I have for over 7 years.

    2. Converted my Wife to Mac over a year ago. Same problems @ school.

    3. My son is on a mac.

    4. Converted my brother to mac - Not easy

    5. My sister is on a Mac - That was not easy either.

    Still working on my parents, that one may be lost long before I started.

    Overall: I get the mac Issues.

    IE7 for Mac. I think there was little hope when IE6 for mac never made it. I am as bummed as you are.

    I am an PS2 user always have been. PS3 is a little high priced but I can't make myself get the xBox. It' a great system but I really don't like the idea that it would be an MS product in that spot, plus the PS3 is Power5. As and iSeries guy it's super cool.

    I am really not that bad of a guy, I just hate the two faced approach IBM has had with Linux.

    I do get Eclipse and Hannover. I think that is the right path for Lotus and everything for that matter. It just make sense, but I like the idea of crying over split milk. The fact that they (IBM/Lotus) have not delivered their core products to Linux and MacOSX for that matter bugs me to death.

    I think someone has to start a love fest with Apple and IBM would have been the number one canadite 2 years ago but they almost shunned them at the peak of the G5 CPU hype. It's like they didn't even know they were making PCs. If a comapny like Google can have over 90% of thier workforce on Macs then would it not have been smart since IBM was making the G5 chip to start to push the IBM workforce to Mac too...?

    Hey IBM a Mac is just UNIX with a really well done GUI. Thought you might have wanted to have known that.

    I was expecting a few odd comments but not the out and out "TROLL BOY" comment. That just says I have nothing to say but he makes me mad! Put your comments in a form we can all talk about. It's just that simple.

    As for my Exchange comments. I was just talking about what I say in the new company I am with. It's hard to know what you are up against when you never get out there and play with it. Can I be a pain the arse? Sure! Do I get IT? Yes. Do I always make business sense when I post things like I did above? Hell No. I do it to get people talking. I do it to make people think about where they are, what they want and where they want to be. I want IBM to do allot of things, I know only a tenth of a percent of them will ever happen and in my case they already have. I had on significant APAR in 1999 that changed a few things on the iSeries and I am pretty proud of that, and I get the fact that one APAR is probably all I will get in my life time.

    So with that said. I get both sides of the fence, I really do. I also am disappointed with IBMs progress on some things. Hannover is long over due but will change the playing field for ever customer on the fence. Hell I think I could sell it here but they have to release it and start to show customers using it.

    That is all for now....I need to get back to it as an iSeries Admin....

  1. 18  stephen hood  | 11/17/2006 3:51:27 PM

    @17

    David my first part was simply in response about the Mac quality of IBM vs MS that you raised. I was just making the point that we use it and not just for the standard mail templates but custom apps as well. Could it work better yes but it works fine for getting work done. My other points are related to future support and comittment from the various vendors. Eclipse makes it much easier and more likely to be coming from IBM than MS.

    I read your post as mainly someone frustrated - but the tone, highlighting negatives of Notes at the same time not mentioning the negatives you were aware of with Exchange - in fact using it in order to shame IBM as not being as committed is why I said "Otherwise you just end up looking like a troll" ..not that you are one. But your delivery undermines your message. That's all. I believe your frustration got in the way of delivering a more objective and useful message.

    Get involved with the beta, provide constructive feedback and make it a better product. That's the way to get what you want. That's all.

  1. 19  stephen hood  | 11/17/2006 4:16:19 PM

    @17

    David, I don't believe IBM is being two faced. It's about it taking time to get there. As I said the size of their portfolio is massive.

    I would much rather have the cross-platform choices being provided and committed to by IBM - even if that takes a bit longer than some would like. I think Eclipse makes it possible to deliver that at a cost both IBM and it's customers can live with.

  1. 20  David Bell  | 11/17/2006 5:40:36 PM

    @15 - if I understand it correctly, the switch from Power to Intel caused some of the delay as IBM strived to provide Notes 7.0.2 as universal binaries. I think this required some updates to MacOS from Apple and is how we arrived at 10.4 being the minimum platform for Notes 7.0.2.

  1. 21  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 11/17/2006 8:24:42 PM

    @9 - IBM did market the same PowerPC chip from the G5 as a BladeCenter JS20 blade. I think they may also have put it into some pSeries boxes, too. I don't see what IBM could have possibly done to make the CPU's more mainstream, the only consumer OS that runs on them is OSX. Are you seriously suggesting that IBM become a Linux distribution vendor?

    You and I aren't so different, and like you I've had my fits of wailing and gnashing of teeth. I can tell you from personal experience that you come off as a spastic nutjob when you take that approach.

  1. 22  David Heeney  | 11/18/2006 12:42:04 AM

    Although I too wished the OSX version would have been out sooner, I'm sooooo glad it's here. 6.5 taught me about Force Quit on the mac; it locked up several times a day for no reason, and 90% of the time when I opened a message with embedded html. The 7.02 beta hasn't locked up yet, it looks so much better than 6.5 did with Silk, and has built in Sametime and the other Notes 7 features. As Ed pointed out, it's also *much* zippier. The only think that hasn't worked for me so far is a page with an embedded Sametime Contact list. I'm no longer considering replacing my Powerbook with a MacBook Pro so I can run Notes in Windows/Parallels (not that there aren't other reasons to replace the Powerbook -- including Domino Designer).

  1. 23  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 11/18/2006 1:29:59 AM

    I will take your "spastic nutjob"and raise you to Looney Tech Junkie!

  1. 24  Kevin Hansen http://www.dominokeys.com/blog | 11/18/2006 8:46:44 AM

    First, I'm very glad to see that there's a 7.0.2 beta for MacOSX. I'm downloading it as I type and will recklessly install it out of sheer excitement the moment I finish tihs post. Yes, I could jump on the "why did you wait so long, IBM?" bandwagon, but z'nuff is z'nuff of that.

    Let me focus on the opportunity part of this discussion...

    Every time I asked an IBMer why they didn't put more effort into Notes on a Mac, I'd always tell them that "the only thing standing between (either not having a 2nd PC or having a Mac running Parallels with Windows) and doing everything on a Mac, is Notes ... specifically not having Admin/Designer on a Mac native" -- they'd always say "yeah, but if we did that, you wouldn't buy IBM ThinkPads!"

    Yes, but now that Lenovo owns them, I think that's OK. -- So... about that Admin/Dev client ....? ;-)

    An even bigger opportunity is the XServe (Apple's server). We use these things and the XRaid in our environment. We even have an XRaid tied to an IBM server running TSM on Win2003. Its awesome. What an amazing and cost-efficient little device! -- I would LOVE to be able to install Domino on an Xserve. They're Intel now, ya'know. And Apple has often made subtle comments about wanting an enterprise class mail system. Oh, and weren't some of the early versions of Notes based on the UI of things coming out of Apple? -- Again, in my world, just before BeOS makes a come-back, Apple and Lotus team up to deliver some crazy-cool software.

    Finally, those of you who attended Lotusphere 2005 might remember one of the "What's new in..." sessions where the presenter (I soooo wish I could remember his name) said "In addition to the Linux stuff, we're also working on a new version of Notes for Mac users." -- After a louder applause than anyone expected he said "Wait. So ... you're telling me more of you are excited about Notes on a Mac than on Linux?!"

    Yes. We are. And there are probably more of us than you realize ... and with some serious IBM/Lotus/Apple synergy, I bet that number could grow even bigger!

    @End(Rant)

  1. 25  stephen hood  | 11/18/2006 10:23:14 AM

    @24

    Kevin I'm ending up in the same place in my thinking.

    To put it in perspective

    You get the Quad-core Xserve HARDWARE ($2999) with unlimited CALS for $1000 LESS...

    than a Windows 2003 Enterprise Server with only 25 CALS ($3999). Now add your equivalent hardware on top of that, not to mention the windows CALS and the gap just gets even wider - ridiculously so.

    The Xserve is a great deal. The server OS becomes a commodity via the Apple route. Linux or Mac clients against an Apple server with a few legacy windows clients for designer is one option.

    Virtualization with Domino on Linux may be an option - haven't looked into that possibility yet.

    Of course IBM also sell servers :)

    Please no conspiracy theories :)

  1. 26  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 11/18/2006 10:35:07 AM

    Come on, there's no conspiracy here -- there are plenty of non-IBM servers running Domino out there.

    It's been a few years, but I have been in meetings with Apple about xServe. It's come up on the blog before. I can't see what -net new business- will be garnered for Domino by porting to this platform, certainly not enough business to cost-justify the expense of the port.

  1. 27  Kevin Hansen http://www.dominokeys.com/blog | 11/19/2006 9:20:53 AM

    Careful ... you're getting dangerously close to sounding like you're selling out. ;-)

    I'm totally kidding ... you're right, the truth is that I'm not going to stop running Domino because it doesn't run on an Xserve. If I were a SMB looking to reduce costs or a new small biz getting started, I'd run, not walk, to the closest web browser and buy me up a brand new shiny Xserve. Its got everything in that little box. -- If there was one for $XXXX more that had Domino on it w/ XX-CALs, I wouldn't even think about buying that, I'd just do it!

    Again, back to the synergy between Apple/IBM that's needed to make that happen. And again (harsh reality here), Apple has done little more than mention businesses exist, so I don't think attacking that market is really in their sights at the moment.

    ... but maybe its time to meet with them again and just see?

  1. 28  Chris Quirk  | 11/21/2006 12:22:07 PM

    Has anyone tried this out on an intel macbook pro? I did, and it crashes each time it launches. Is this a universal binary. I could find no documentation? Thanks.

  1. 29  Andy Li  | 11/21/2006 3:50:50 PM

    I wonder if I can get a copy of 7.0.2 beta for MacOS X - given the IT at my employer is so imcompetent and unable to provide me Notes Client 6.5.5 for MacOS X. I wonder whether I should choose to work for a company not use Lotus Notes at all.

  1. 30  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 11/21/2006 4:51:41 PM

    @29: unable to install or unwilling to provide & support? If the former, it seems odd that your employer doesn't give you a tool they mandate you use to perform your job. If the latter, well that's fair enough isn't it? Most companies have IT standards you know!

    @28: 7.0.2 is indeed a Universal Binary I believe

  1. 31  Chris Quirk  | 11/21/2006 7:49:29 PM

    @30 if it is a universal binary, is there anyone at lotus interested in the stack trace? or the goop that is collected by osX for submittal to Apple?

  1. 32  Dave Manning  | 11/22/2006 9:08:12 PM

    I've been using 6.5.x for about two years, completely unsupported, and it's worked most of the time. The 7.0.2 Beta appears to work fine - but call me a clueless newbie: How can I make Safari my default browser?

  1. 33  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 11/23/2006 4:07:35 PM

    @32: in the same way you do on any Notes installation. Open your location document, click on the browser tab, select "Other" and then use the dialog box to navigate to "/Applications/Safari.app" (or wherever you have your instance).

  1. 34  Dave Manning  | 11/23/2006 8:11:33 PM

    @33: That's what I'd assume you'd do, but Safari is always greyed out as an option!

  1. 35  Mike Brown  | 11/27/2006 4:10:52 PM

    @33

    I'd guess that your local address book, names.nsf, needs upgrading to the new design. That's ususally the reason that other browsers are greyed out.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 36  Dave Manning  | 11/29/2006 9:02:07 PM

    @35 - OK, but how do I upgrade the design? Sorry to ask so many questions about such a trivial thing. :D

  1. 37  Bob Greenberg  | 11/30/2006 10:07:48 AM

    Its pretty self-explanatory....how do I set the workspace without a right-click? The help says right click of course...im sure its a copy of the PC version lol...

    Thanks in advance...

    Bob

  1. 38  john http://blog.nominet.org.uk | 12/6/2006 11:45:18 AM

    Fantastic. This release adds many small features that add up to a much more usable email client.

    1. the default font is much better

    2. it's quicker

    3. mouse scroll wheel now works

    4. able to save window state

    5. auto save (have not tested as doesn't crash!)

    6. dock icon changes to indicate new mail

    7. "send memo to" option if you right click on senders name in a memo

    8. improved installer

    ... I expect there is still more to discover

  1. 39  Lars Berntrop-Bos  | 12/8/2006 3:31:27 AM

    Please, please, add JAVA support on the Mac!!!

  1. 40  Stephen  | 12/8/2006 9:18:28 AM

    Our initial look at 7.0.2. on the Mac is very positive.

    One feature that appears to be missing which makes me sad - when in a date or time field, the ability to move forward and backward by pressing the up and down arrows doesn't work. Is this just one of those things they haven't made it to yet, or a design decision? I use this feature constantly. Does it work for anyone else?

  1. 41  Bob Greenberg  | 12/11/2006 10:08:25 AM

    Anyone figure out how to make the Workspace the home page on beta 2?

    FYI cascading address books...it doesn't allow more than a few....workaround: type the paths and commas in manually.

    Bob

  1. 42  Dilbog  | 12/17/2006 12:29:10 AM

    Is 7.0.2 compatible with R6 servers? My company is running R6 and most people are using Notes 5 still. Talk about behind the times.