Ed Brill

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1. 1  Ben Langhinrichs http://www.GeniiSoft.com/showcase.nsf/GeniiBlog | 7/10/2006 12:09:52 AM

   Awesome effort on IBM's part! I don't imagine tons of people will move right away to Linux, but this will certainly make it much more possible for those governments and companies that are so inclined to start the process. It is amazing to see how IBM manages to keep releasing software ahead of schedule while some other companies can't seem to ever release it on time (and sometimes can't seem to release it even late). IBM has come a long way since the days when it routinely announced vaporware, and has earned a lot of healthy respect for its ability to release regularly and promptly. Well done!

1. 2  Andrew Price http://www.healthspace.ca | 7/10/2006 12:55:16 AM

   OMG Ponies!!!

   What can I say? I am awestruck.

   Thank you soooo much Lotus.

1. 3  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/10/2006 1:38:19 AM

   Good move. I hope IBM continues to release unmanaged Workplace clients.

   The "famous Linux question" has morphed today: "When do we get Notes development capabilities without the requirement to run Windows?" :-)

1. 4  Neil http://www.dominoconsultans.com | 7/10/2006 2:01:41 AM

   Fantastic, I know a number of Java dev's at my place that will be pesterin our admin team to get it, so they can finally not have to use windows.

   Now just wait for the requestes for Designer to be ported... ohh hang on its already started LOL

1. 5  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/10/2006 2:25:51 AM

   heise online: { Link }

1. 6  Subhan  | 7/10/2006 2:27:17 AM

   The news made on to frontpage of Google News. It helps as even common man get to know LN is there and making news.

   The many companies which are planing to move over Linux, it will ease their decision and planning.

1. 7  Alan Bell http://www.astoryforbedtime.com | 7/10/2006 3:23:54 AM

   I can't wait to start using this!

1. 8  Michael  | 7/10/2006 3:46:30 AM

   Awesome...

1. 9  Stuart McIntyre http://macsfacts.blogpsot.com | 7/10/2006 3:50:06 AM

   Well hallejulah!

   At last we finally have the full message to give on the number 1 rason to migrate away from Exchange - CHOICE. We've had server choice for years, Linux, AS400, OS/390, AIX, Solaris etc. etc., and now we have real client choice - R7 Notes on Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, POP, IMAP, Web.

   This is a wonderful story to take to market, and congratulations to IBM for making it happen.

1. 10  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 7/10/2006 4:02:24 AM

   This is fantastic news... and really starts to push the argument for Linux desktops. Brilliant!

1. 11  Axel  | 7/10/2006 4:13:46 AM

   Good news.

   Though I am a big fan of the Windows operation system (and emotionally attached to it), I saw myself obliged to install an aditional Ubuntu on my box at home (and plan to do so in my job, too. Just get to know the responsible sysadmin a bit better as this is my 6th day here :-)).

   Are there any plans to support Ubuntu, too?

   Or some hacks to make it going from somebody?

   I think Ubuntu is popular especially among developers.

1. 12  Andrew Price http://www.healthspace.ca | 7/10/2006 4:56:03 AM

   I agree about Ubuntu, it seems to be the up and coming distro.

1. 13  Peter Wilson  | 7/10/2006 5:07:40 AM

   Cool. Bring us a decent Undo as well :-)

   Pete

1. 14  Andy Dennis http://www.lan2lan.com | 7/10/2006 5:16:37 AM

   Great News! Can't wait to see XGL/Compiz on the SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop and running Lotus Notes for Linux!!

1. 15  Steve Lapthorn http://www.dga.co.uk | 7/10/2006 5:49:25 AM

   Excellent! can't wait to use it - it's nearly time to stop using dual-boot and to migrate some more desktops to linux

1. 16  Konstantin Lessle  | 7/10/2006 6:19:18 AM

   Very good news. We have quite a number of desktop clients that don't need anything but a browser to use some applications and Notes to use some information databases and to take part in the mailing process. (And no, using INotes is not an option for us, without going into details).

   Now we have a chance to move these desktops to Linux and lower our operating costs.

   Thank you for giving us a choice!

   Kind regards from Germany,

   Konstantin Lessle

1. 17  Hynek Kobelka http://www.pylonware.com | 7/10/2006 6:32:55 AM

   Great news !!!

   ... and besides Novell made a poll in February 2006 about what Windows-only applications, if ported to Linux, would increase the likelihood that people would switch to Linux:

   Lotus Notes is nr. 10

   The top 10 applications (after 31 days of voting) are as follows:

   1. Photoshop

   2. Autocad

   3. Dreamweaver

   4. iTunes

   5. Macromedia Studio

   6. Flash

   7. Quicken

   8. Visio

   9. Quickbooks

   10. Lotus Notes

   More here: { Link }

1. 18  Mick Moignard http://www.dominopower.com  | 7/10/2006 6:40:03 AM

   I'm pleased to see this. Way back in June 2003, in DominoPower, I argued for Lotus doing a Linux client (see two articles at { Link }

   Great stuff.

   Mick Moignard

1. 19  Henning Heinz  | 7/10/2006 6:41:30 AM

   I do not think that it will be a problem to get it to run on Ubuntu, unsupported though.

   Will there be a version of ZapNotes for Linux (ok, just kidding)?

   It is good news, thank you.

1. 20  Roger Hintz  | 7/10/2006 7:27:12 AM

   Truly awesome...and greatly appreciated.

   @19 - ZapNotes??? LMAO

1. 21  Keith Brooks http://www.keithbrooks.com | 7/10/2006 7:56:58 AM

   Very cool.. I remember the never on Linux line...as Sean Connery said, never say never.

1. 22  Irv Schor  | 7/10/2006 8:12:21 AM

   What about all of Sametime features, including the Server Platform (Server platform still seems to still be a Windows only option)?

1. 23  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/10/2006 8:22:01 AM

   @22 Good question and I should update the original post. Sametime 7.5 will be the first Linux version of the Sametimte client. It's not integrated into the Notes on Linux 7.0.1 being announced today. That integration will come at Notes "Hannover" next year.

   As for Sametime -server- on Linux, nothing to announce at this time. The Sametime 7 server runs on

   -IBM pSeries (AIX), V5.1 and V5.2

   -Sun Solaris operating environment, V8 and V9

   -IBM i5/OS (iSeries) V5R3

   and Windows.

   See { Link }

1. 24  Joerg Michael  | 7/10/2006 8:29:25 AM

   Now also picked up by Slashdot: { Link }

   So far, at threshold 3, the comments aren't all that bad :-)

1. 25  Bill Brown  | 7/10/2006 8:56:56 AM

   Where is the official IBM announcement?

   I'm jazzed by this! Will it include Admin/Designer as well?

1. 26  Ralf M Petter  | 7/10/2006 9:22:08 AM

   Sorry, but the headline is not correct. Notes is not running on Linux. It looks like Notes is running on Linux x86. This is very sad for the people using Linux on an IBM PPC Plattform. So i think users of IBM PPC are second class citizen :-((

1. 27  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/10/2006 9:29:06 AM

   @26 Desktop PowerPC Linux machines? How big a market is that?

   @25 I don't think the IBM release is posted on ibm.com yet... will update when it is. No Admin/Desginer.

1. 28  Nathan T. Freeman  | 7/10/2006 9:55:49 AM

   /me does the happy dance.

   'nuff said

1. 29  tbn  | 7/10/2006 10:10:07 AM

   Will client-side agents coded in Java run on the Linux notes client?

1. 30  deleted  | 7/10/2006 10:16:58 AM

   Comment deleted - no anonymous comments allowed

1. 31  Bill Brown  | 7/10/2006 10:23:16 AM

   Official announcement: { Link }

1. 32  Per Henrik Lausten http://per.lausten.dk/blog/ | 7/10/2006 11:31:52 AM

   BusinessWeek online: "A Ray of Hope for Desktop Linux"

   { Link }

1. 33  Brian Green  | 7/10/2006 11:51:34 AM

   We can finally plan to have Linux workstations for some users. Notes7 on Linux is a surprise. I think most companies were delaying any Linux discussions until Notes "Hannover" ships.

1. 34  Joerg Hochwald http://blog.hochwald.net/blogs/jhochwald.nsfdx/notes-client-for-linux.htm | 7/10/2006 12:20:46 PM

   Nach viel hin und her ist nun doch bald soweit: Es wird einen Lotus Notes Client für Linux gegen!!!
   
   

1. 35  Charles Robinson  | 7/10/2006 12:48:00 PM

   Kudos to the development team on this one, it's a stellar achievement. I'm assuming this is coming with the 7.02 release. Please be sure to provide links to any new information, such "how to deploy Notes 7.02 on LTSP". :-D

1. 36  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/10/2006 12:57:54 PM

   @34 no, not the 7.0.2 release, coming in two weeks as part of the 7.0.1 series.

1. 37  Marc http://marc.abramowitz.info | 7/10/2006 1:00:16 PM

   I never really understood or appreciated Lotus Notes when I used it two companies ago. I guess you either love it or hate it.

   However, I applaud IBM for releasing commercial software for Linux.

1. 38  Sander Zwart http://www.witbegintzwartwint.nl | 7/10/2006 1:38:50 PM

   Hi Ed,

   Also the dutch press published the news of the linux client:

   { Link }

   { Link }

1. 39  Charles Robinson  | 7/10/2006 2:31:06 PM

   @35 - Wow, thanks for that update. I read through the press release twice and didn't see a release date, and since all the buzz lately has been about 7.02 I did some math and apparently came up with the wrong answer. :)

1. 40  Peter Haynes  | 7/10/2006 3:20:44 PM

   This is good news - but isn't the lack of support for SuSE Linux a major oversight?

   Is there any idea on when SuSE support will be available?

   I know Red Hat is more popular - but SuSE (Novell) has a lot of corporate environments that want to use Notes on Linux.

1. 41  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/10/2006 3:26:44 PM

   @39 I think I said that SUSE will follow -- the press release specifically says within 90 days.

1. 42  Bill Geimer  | 7/10/2006 3:27:35 PM

   I am predicting a day one download to see if this works on Fedora Core 5, which might turn out to be the sweet spot for Notes on Linux, but who knows. You might be surprised how many cheap environment fans exist out here.

1. 43  Jamie Houston  | 7/10/2006 3:37:04 PM

   Art Fontaine says this: And later this year we'll add support for the new Novell desktop Linux, SUSE Linux for Enterprise Desktops 10. Between RHEL4 and SLED10, that will cover the vast majority of business Linux desktops out there.”

1. 44  Samuel deHuszar Allen  | 7/10/2006 4:47:17 PM

   Another vote for Ubuntu. I know RedHat and SuSE are the business darlings of desktop Linux, but as far as casual desktop usage goes, Ubuntu has been smoking everyone else. Hell it's already a DB2 Certified platform. And while we're at it, I'd really love to see Domino supported on Ubuntu.

   And lest I sound like a whining never-satisfied needer, thanks for the great announcement. I am confident that this will be the first in a long line of awesome and evolving Linux support. I'm sure as hell going to try and get it set up on Ubuntu, supported platform or not. I just hate having to lie to the Lotus Techs when I have issues or questions. :p

1. 45  Giuseppe http://dominopoint.it | 7/10/2006 4:55:43 PM

   this story is on digg frontpage now ( { Link } ) linking to { Link }

1. 46  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 7/10/2006 7:33:07 PM

   Right. After the euphoria is over, lets sit and actually decide how important this is:

   1. Lotus Notes now runs natively on a new CLIENT. It runs on a number of servers - and now runs on three client platforms instead of two.

   Lets face it. Mac support has been shaky, but is far far better in 7.0.2. Notes v6.5 could run under Linux with WINE but 7.x could not. Something needed to give - and it was understood from DNUG 2006 "ask the developers" that WINE was fatally flawed.

   This announcement - a native notes client - is stellar.

   [ Not least because taking a product as mature as Notes Client and putting it on a NEW PLATFORM is a HUGE underaking - code wise, support wise, and partner wise. Its a brave new world! ]

   2. Desktop on Linux ? A lot of MS-Lovers will ask "why". And its true - there's not a lot of Linux desktops out there.

   Yet.

   But thats changing fast. Look at SUSE 10 desktop. Thats an XP beater. (Not seen it yet ? Check it out...!)

   Is it as slick as Tiger ? Of course not. The Macs an amazing platform. But is it good enough to wean corporates off XP?

   Definately. And on all the same hardware that XP has *right now*. Thats the Edge on Tiger/Lepoard.

   3. How many people run Linux desktops right now ?

   Not a lot. However, the ones that *are* - and I'm thinking of a large UK police force - do it because Linux is a far far more secure desktop than XP.

   Notes native on linux is far far far far (to the Nth degree) more secure than Outlook on Windows..

   4. Where is the world going ?

   Well IBM internally - and lets remember that IBM itself represents 400,000 desktops - is playing hard with Linux desktop. This advances the argument along a long way.

   5. Competition ?

   Look at the Hanover client rolling along soon, with OpenOffice widgets included (for free, of course). All of a sudden, with this release, and of course the Hannover client, you have a Full Operating system, desktop applications, and now full Notes client, all running securely outside of the MS software stack.

   This really shakes the MS "one on every desktop" strategy hard, and given the MS current delivery woes, really shows the world that there is an alternative...

   I mean. In the first time since OS/2 and CP/M (ask your mum), has there been serious competition to the MS Software Stack.

   One hopes that Mr Ozzie is in control, and Mr Balmer stops his chair-orientated management technique long enough to understand that the two profit-making (shaky) pillars of the Redmond empire is under serious pressure... And remember, these two pillars - OS and Office - are the only two that *make money*....

   Very very interesting, and IBM Lotus division should be congratulated on their bravery, releasing this client to the world.

   It might be IBM, but this is a company with big, brass Balls.

   Bravo.

   --* Bill

1. 47  Linda Pelfrey  | 7/10/2006 7:50:36 PM

   Cool. A Linux client was obviously inevitable even in 2001; regardless congratulations/thanks.

   1) Which brand/version JVM will this run on?

   Is the JVM that applets etc run in the same as the RCP? Or is there a "Notes JVM" to run the java for applets in forms and agents or will it use the same JVM as the RCP. It would seem un-Lotus like to support a current version of Java.

   2) Did the companies, esp. in China/India/Brazil et al, who were pushing for Linux support really mean they wanted it on an O/S platform that costs more than Windows, RHEL. I would have thought that companies would have prefered to lower their O/S cost and thus IBM support for a free Linux would have been appropriate.

1. 48  Vaughan Rivett http://www.rivettassociates.com | 7/10/2006 8:22:52 PM

   Wow!

   This is excellent news. I know a number of our clients will be willing to give this a go. Well done IBM!

   Vaughan

1. 49  Justin Freeman http://www.agileware.net | 7/10/2006 11:04:14 PM

   This is great news for corporate users and the Linux desktop.

   Just fantastic :)

1. 50  Justin Freeman http://www.agileware.net | 7/10/2006 11:35:57 PM

   The best bit about this announcement is this:

   "The software will be downloadable via Passport Advantage starting on July 24, 2006"

   As opposed what I was expecting, which was: "Q1 2008"

1. 51  Ralf M Petter  | 7/11/2006 1:20:50 AM

   @27 Yes market is small today, but anyway if you own such a computer it is very hard to believe that IBM itself is not providing their own software for there own hardware. But anyway my next computer will be based on intel hardware.

   Greetings

   Ralf M Petter

1. 52  Andrew Price http://www.healthspace.ca | 7/11/2006 4:54:38 AM

   @45: Well said Bill!

   I hope that Ubuntu and/or all LSB can be added to support in the fullness of time. :)

1. 53  Stuart McIntyre http://macsfacts.blogpsot.com | 7/11/2006 6:58:04 AM

   @45: Bill, as ever, is on the mark...

   I hadn't really considered the security-based market here - I remember rolling out previous generations of Groupware on secure versions of Unix (OfficePower on ICL DRS unix boxes, anyone) for the UK MOD and civil service. Notes on Linux really does create a persuasive argument to these types of organisations.

1. 54  Hynek Kobelka http://www.pylonware.com | 7/11/2006 8:04:46 AM

   One of the best parts of this announcement is that together with the Notes-Client now hundreds (or thousands) of Notes-application run on a Linux-Desktop.

   (And the lack of applications is still the biggest disadvantage of the Linux-Desktop.)

   Now you have CRMs,Helpdesk,Call-Center,Workflow,DocManagement,Controlling,and much more -Applications on Linux.

   Moreover many PCs are used exclusively for one application only (for example Call-Center-PCs). These are ideal candidates for beeing replaced immediately to Linux-Desktops.

   Thanks IBM for that !!!

1. 55  Mikkel Heisterberg http://lekkimworld.com | 7/11/2006 9:11:51 AM

   @46

   1. Without knowing anything about it I would guess that IBM would supply their own JVM and that the JVM would be the same as the RCP one.

   2. Because it is only supported on RHEL doesn't mean it wont run on other distributions. I don't think you can blame IBM for restricting the number of supported distributions - remember the only one to pay for the support is you and me. I guess we have just grown used to clients but being distributed on platforms where you can choose from more than one vendor...

   /lekkim

1. 56  Richard Sampson http://www.hadsl.com | 7/11/2006 9:16:08 AM

   Wow. This was a bit of a surprise announcement (to me), but a very, very welcomed one! Congratulations to all involved.

   I guess I'll have to pull my finger out now and set up a Linux desktop installation so that I can play with this.

   According to the ultra-techies, a few years ago the Linux desktop was going to sweep all before it, and MS were doomed. I didn't believe this for one second - there simply weren't the familiar commercial corporate apps for the OS to support this view. True enough, Linux desktop has not made huge inroads into our daily computing life (I'm talking about ordinary people here, not us -the IT cognoscenti).

   Well, I think that my view is changing somewhat now and sufficient maturity has been reached that Linux desktop may well begin to achieve significant penetration in many areas. I still hold the view that MS is certainly not doomed, but in five or ten years time perhaps their current global monopoly on the desktop OS may seem to them to be a golden age.

   There are a few markets where I see Linux making significant inroads - local & national government, education, call centre-type "single purpose" pcs, etc. These are areas where the organisation may not want to be beholden to a single corporation (for political or commercial reasons) or where security of the desktop is paramount, etc.

   These are organisations where enterprise email is mission critical, and IBM have now given them one more reason to consider going down this path. There is surely vast potential in this market.

   I don't really consider myself an inveterate "Anybody But Microsoft" zealot, but I think that just as the IBM domination of the computing marketplace in the '70s and early '80s was not healthy, neither is the current Microsoft domination of the desktop OS marketplace.

   Bravo! Encore!

1. 57  David Frahm  | 7/11/2006 11:08:04 AM

   Anybody got a screenshot? I'm trying to figure out what this thing looks like.

1. 58  Brian Pletcher  | 7/12/2006 8:35:26 PM

   Ed, you said you your original post: "No Workplace server required for provisioning, no separate deployment of the Workplace managed client required. It's Lotus Notes, running on Linux."

   However, the press release says: "The new client is based on the IBM Workplace Managed Client, IBM’s platform for delivering server-managed, rich collaboration clients to a wide range of end-user devices, across multiple platforms. The IBM Workplace Managed Client is built on an IBM version of the Eclipse Foundation’s Rich Client Platform (RCP), which will be the basis for all IBM clients going forward."

   And when I asked in the 7.0.2 beta forum, I was told that this offering was not going to be available in 7.0.2, only 7.0.1 - which led me to believe it was a "special" build based on the workplace plug in, which obviously would be a dissapointment.

   The digg { Link } on it wasn't particularly positive and I hope that it is a real installable client so there isn't more fuel for that fire.

1. 59  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/12/2006 8:57:14 PM

   @58 Brian, NO WORKPLACE SERVER IS REQUIRED. It is true that underneath, the Eclipse/Workplace client is in the mix, but it is self-provisioned in such a way that the client is simply a Notes client as far as the admin and end-user are concerned.

   For both you and @57 above, I've posted a screenshot at { Link }

1. 60  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/12/2006 8:57:42 PM

   oh and as for the digg....welcome to the new slashdot. Funny that the slashdot on the news was generally pretty balanced, almost positive.

1. 61  Brian Pletcher  | 7/13/2006 2:12:49 AM

   Thanks Ed for the explanation and the screenshot. That's good news.

   So, was it bad info I got about it's continued availability with 7.0.2 or is it a "special" build that we will see updates for only periodically?

1. 62  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/13/2006 7:12:45 AM

   @61 what you were told in the beta forum was that -at this time- there is no plan to update the Linux client to 7.0.2, "but that may change based on customer feedback and uptake". The situation reflects the moment-in-time effort to get the Linux client out the door, not a long-term position.

1. 63  David Vasta http://david.davidandkelly.com | 7/13/2006 12:35:40 PM

   I am very happy about this. Now is this only the Notes Client or the full blown, Admin, Notes & Designer?

   Any way....good ideas from all of us have come to light. Thanks Ed.

1. 64  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/13/2006 12:42:18 PM

   @63, give an inch and they'll take a mile :-)

   Notes client only. No plans for Admin. Designer, well, work going on to prototype running Designer in Eclipse, which might well lead to this someday. But absolutely not committed.

1. 65  Mike Brown  | 7/13/2006 2:11:08 PM

   @60

   I too was pleasantly surprised by the (relatively) balanced views on Slashdot, and totally agree about Digg. My fave post there has to be:

   "We had some consultants from Cap Gemini ... One of the things he told me is that the FIRST thing they tell companies is to stop building applications on the messaging platform"

   Just how wrong can you get these things? Most of Notes' perceived UI problems have actually happened because the complete reverse is true: Lotus built the messaging system UI on top of a (rather good) application platform.

   It certainly would have been interesting to see how matey's conversation with his consultants continued after the "drop Notes/Domino" bit. Methinks it would have gone something like:

   "... and rearchitect them on XYZ, latest buzzword-bingo, you'll read about it all over the 'net system. We've got the hottest developers, all souped up and ready to come in and do it all for you, in fact. Shouldn't take more than 5 years and 6 million USD to get you about back where you are today; but hell, you'll be shot of Notes!"

   Actually, the last sentence wouldn't have been spoken, because it's the truth.

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 66  Joerg Hochwald http://blog.hochwald.net/dx/notes-client-for-linux.htm | 7/13/2006 3:59:19 PM

   Nach viel hin und her ist nun doch bald soweit: Es wird einen Lotus Notes Client für Linux geben!!!
   
   

1. 67  Theo Heselmans http://www.xceed.be | 7/14/2006 5:34:23 AM

   Nice. Tx for the Linux version.

   Is the 'universal' Notes client for Mac OS X also included in the 7.02 versions ?

   I switch to an Intel Mac as soon as I got a 'native' version.

   How about a designer client ? Or is the Mac version still Notes Client only ?

1. 68  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/14/2006 7:02:58 AM

   @67 yes 7.0.2 will contain the Mac client for both Power and Intel Macs. Notes client only.

1. 69  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 7/17/2006 12:11:19 PM

   This was great news to hear during my vacation!! I thought we would just have to be content with Notes in WMC on Linux. Core Notes support is wonderful to hear.

   So, why would a product at the end of its life be releasing new code to be supported in a new OS? Because it's not EOL for Notes. Yet another benefit - being able to tell management that Notes isn't going away because they just took the effort to create a full client for Linux!

1. 70  Joerg Hochwald http://blog.hochwald.net/blogs/jhochwald.nsf/dx/notes-client-on-linux-part-1.htm | 7/24/2006 2:27:39 AM

   IBM Lotus Notes Client 7.0.1 for Linux frist look
   
   

1. 71  Dan Kegel http://wiki.winehq.org/LotusNotes | 8/18/2006 1:15:52 AM

   There are probably still a few reasons to run the

   Windows client on Linux using Wine, so the Wine team

   got their act together and fixed the most common problems.

   As of wine-0.9.19, the Windows client installs and runs

   reasonably well on Linux. See

   { Link } for more info.

1. 72  Robin Muirhead  | 9/6/2006 10:12:25 AM

   I just came across this news (a little late but it's so big that it's worth comment. In the UK the government has a very big IT Spend, so I hope that they start moving the PCs over to Linux in large number. There are so many problems with windows builds and countless security blunders that any corporate would be crazy not to follow.

   Then finally Lotus can start to wipe out the ms-outlook trivia that is creeping in,