Ed Brill

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1. 1  tom oneil  | 6/21/2010 9:43:06 PM

   I'm sorry. I just don't buy the "The reality is the complexity of committing to 5 years of support, testing on multiple platforms, translating into all the languages that we ship Notes in....I would rather not try than to do it and not do it well."

   I'm not sure how it works in other countries or other languages but we have hundreds (maybe near 1,000) of the craptastic teamroom template installed at our location. They don't use any of the features, they use it like Sharepoint.

   You're telling me it wouldn't be worth your time to put together an out-of-the-box "updated" teamroom template to compete with Sharepoint? I'm speechless.

   If you honestly told me you wouldn't do it because of conflicts with Quickr... I'd understand. But to tell me it's not a benefit to the Lotus Notes platform...

1. 2  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/21/2010 11:39:31 PM

   "...the same way Apple's app store gives me some free "light" apps where I then am enticed to buy them for all their glorious utility on my iPad. And yes, I am dearly aware that the catalog is not visible enough, that its home on Greenhouse knocks its credibility as a strategic part of our story..."

   Since you apply your own criticism here, I don't have a lot to say except "yeah, even you know the reason why the 'Solutions Catalog' isn't in the same ball park." Get serious and fix that.

   You really don't need to promote OpenNTF in the documentation. You need to promote it in Designer and Admin clients. When you have a real app store, then you should promote it in the regular client. But until then, it should at least be visible to Lotus professionals around the globe as an instant and free mechanism to improve their job security. Just put it in the portal pages and watch the hit counts jump.

1. 3  Eric Mack http://www.EricMackOnline.com | 6/21/2010 11:45:54 PM

   Ed, thank you for rising to meet the need to address the points raised in the past few weeks. I understand that it takes time to read and think through the discussions and I look forward to and eagerly await your upcoming posts.

   I hope you are encouraging your team to read these as well so that they might benefit from the interaction as well.

   Thanks again.

   Eric

1. 4  Uan Randall  | 6/22/2010 12:13:15 AM

   I agree with Tom, I'm speeckless, that IBM is not prepared to provide "SOME" out-of-the-box templates for Notes users. Not 50, not a dozen to match SharePoint, but a few.

   The message that you send with this statement is that you are prepared to do it with Quickr, but not for Lotus Notes/Domino.

   However, if XPages is the future of development on the Notes/Domino platform, then why not have IBM create a small sample of some reference applications that have immediate and universal benefit to all users, and then give them away as Open source templates(and donate them to OpenNTF to ehhance, support and maintain);

   Or for IBM to sponsor one or more key Business Partners to build a small set for you (and donate them to OpenNTF to enhance, support and maintain);

   Or offer a prize of several hundred thousand US dollars to anyone who will build a small set of commercial grade templates and offer them as open source examples of what can be achieved with XPages (and donate them to OpenNTF to ehhance, support and maintain).

   We don't need for IBM to develop or support these few out-of-the-box examples, but IBM SHOULD at the very least develop & document their specifications, user interface, architecture, etc. Because these specifications can be used by everyone in the community to encourage best practice and consistency for XPages solutions.

   If these templates need to be developed for all of the languages that are supported by the Lotus Notes/Domino platform, then I am sure that the user community would rally to help.

   As for what functions that these few samples templates should provide, I am sure that this could be discussed and agreed to with the entire community.

   I for one would vote for an XPages based reporting, consolidation and Graphical Dashboard that provides full drill-down and drill-thru to Notes and external data sources, but in the end, it does not really matter which functions are provided, just that they have universal appear and universal benefit.

   If IBM won't provide this level of leadership and commitment to the platform then who will?

1. 5  Sean Cull http://www.seancull.co.uk | 6/22/2010 12:23:54 AM

   Ed, presumably you meant provocative in the same way some people mean "Devils Advocate" because if this is really your position having listened to all thats been said then I'm amazed.

   One note though, isn't localisation easier in XPages ?

   Sean

1. 6  Ulrich Krause http://www.eknori.de | 6/22/2010 12:38:00 AM

   @4: "... However, if XPages is the future of development on the Notes/Domino platform, then why not have IBM create a small sample of some reference applications that have immediate and universal benefit to all users, and then give them away as Open source templates(and donate them to OpenNTF to ehhance, support and maintain); "

   But IBM does. Goto OpenNTF and you will find a lot of examples on XPages. XPages Wiki for example. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's useless because it has BUGS. But as Ed already said: "Go and fix them".

   You also find specifications: OneUI for example.

   " ... I for one would vote for an XPages based reporting"

   OK, any "starting point"? If so, start a new project on OpenNTF! I'm sure you will find someone to help you with this project.

   " .. If these templates need to be developed for all of the languages that are supported by the Lotus Notes/Domino platform, then I am sure that the user community would rally to help."

   Really? Take a look at the Domino TeamMailBox project. With release V7 we only have 2 languages by now. I did the german translation and I can say that it took only 4 hours. So I wonder were other languages are ...

   As for promoting OpenNTF, I agree with Nathan. Get the message to developers and administrators, not managers.

1. 7  Ulrich Krause http://www.eknori.de | 6/22/2010 12:39:39 AM

   @5: One note though, isn't localisation easier in XPages ?

   Sure, but not everyone uses XPages.

1. 8  Peter Presnell http://www.yellowverse.com | 6/22/2010 12:48:12 AM

   I believe SharePoint offers 40 templates, 20 of which are in English only. I am not sure how detailed they are but they look good on a resume. I expect they would have more appeal to a SMB than a larger organization as most large oragnizations should already have solutions for many of these applications.

   A lot of the requests I keep getting are for "collaboration". No-one seems to know exactly what that means any more but they seem to think it comes out of a box with SharePoint or Google. It used to be what Lotus Notes was all about. The Discussion , Document Library, and TeamRoom templates were the core ones that people always requested but they have become outdated. People seem to be looking for shared file stores, wikis, blogs, waves. Kind of what I could provide with Lotus Connections or Quickr. But in a Notes-only shop they want them in Notes. If I can't provide them that then they seem to want to go elsewhere such as the "free" copy of SharePoint that is installed somewhere. So I would ask for a way to either provide these types of solutions from within Lotus Notes or find a way that I can harness the full power of the Lotus brand.

   +1 for selling OpenNTF in the Designer and Admin clients. I think we should empower the Notes developer/admin to find/provide solutions and make sure they can quickly search the OpenNTF catalog at a click of a button. If we could expand the size of the yellow bubble in this way I think we would have a major asset.

1. 9  Erik Brooks  | 6/22/2010 1:27:59 AM

   +1 for selling OpenNTF in the Designer/Admin clients.

   Also Ed, considering what we hear from time to time about "We're migrating to XXXX, IBM didn't even step in to help..." have you guys considered a similar button in Designer/Admin labelled "Notes under attack? Click here to engage IBM"? Not everybody knows they can contact you as a last resort -- though I'm not saying this button should necessarily email you directly. :-)

   Of course, it might not do much without incentivizing IBM sales for retaining license numbers.

1. 10  Chris  | 6/22/2010 1:28:48 AM

   more than 20 years we wait of a new functional groupcalendar....

   without success!

   more than 20 years we wait of a Calendarentry for more als 24 hours....

   without success!

   .....

1. 11  Giulio http://www.buzznotes.com.au | 6/22/2010 1:41:18 AM

   Ed, you could achieve alot more coverage, and less headache in terms of support, by merely including a well-integrated marketing plan for Domino applications within the Lotus Knows campaign. You already have the marketing infrastructure there, so I'm hoping it's not that hard to leverage that investment to include app dev, OpenNTF, Solutions catalog etc...

   On the face of it there is nothing in Lotus Knows that demonstrates the ROI value of Lotus Notes for business applications. Talking about mashups and social computing does not count as "applications". No wonder we're hearing Gartner talking down Lotus Notes as a RAD tool in the "magic quadrants". The cogs within IBM are not making that connection. Too focused on licenses.

   The licenses will still come to if you show them the apps!

   I would suggest something along the lines of RAD and how simple it is to build meaningful applications that are helluva lot cheaper and easier to build and deploy than Sharepoint/MS/Java. And I don't think it will cannibalise the J2EE side of the IBM business either. The scale of applications between them are at relatively opposite spectrums.

   It appears that it never entered into anyones consciousness to consider applications as well in the selling proposition of the LK campaign.

1. 12  Giulio http://www.buzznotes.com.au | 6/22/2010 1:44:00 AM

   People buy blackberries for email.. People buy iPhone/iPad for the apps! Which one has the best growth ?

1. 13  Ian Randall  | 6/22/2010 2:20:17 AM

   @4: Ulrich, there are several benefits of the model that I am suggesting:

   1) A small set of templates "sponsored" by IBM would have more weight that a set created by the community (without IBM's direct involvement).

   2) IBM could provide thought leadership by managing the design, development and initial testing process of this project.

   3) IBM could demonstrate leadership by properly documenting the functional and detailed design specifications for these templates, as well as demonstrate to the community how to produce commercial grade system documentation for whoever is going to provide direct support for these templates.

   4) IBM could donate design, development, testing & project management expertise & resources in collaboration with other business partners and OpenNTF members for this project.

   5) IBM would benefit, because these (Non-email templates) could be used as internal reference templates for testing backward compatibility and for planning of future development of Notes/Domino features and versions.

   6) IBM's direct involvement with the development of these templates would demonstrate a stronger commitment to the Notes/Domino platform.

   7) This project could provide another method of transferring commercially relevant XPages skills to the community.

   8) Involvement by IBM in this project would further strengthen IBM's endorcement of open source.

   9) IBM's risk in the project could be managed by providing them with an exit strategy.

1. 14  Ingo Weidinger  | 6/22/2010 2:33:45 AM

   @6: "...But IBM does. Goto OpenNTF and you will find a lot of examples on XPages. XPages Wiki for example. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's useless because it has BUGS. But as Ed already said: "Go and fix them"."

   Yes, there are some really nice and good applications at OpenNTF. Agree.

   But are customers really able to fix Bugs in XPages Apps? Don't think so.

   The recent simple templates like Teamroom, Discussion and so on, worked fine - no bugs for normal users. Simple. Good.

   We only told new customers "...press Ctrl-N, choose Discussion Template, and GO...". They loved it...

1. 15  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 6/22/2010 2:40:11 AM

   If IBM won't provide out of the box templates, well OK.

   Can I suggest one thing though?

   APIs.

   You know. Mail, C&S, more REST APIs (good start!), authentication, the whole nine yards. Because if you want this platform to continue to be a contender, you need the hooks.

1. 16  Sean Cull http://www.seancull.co.uk | 6/22/2010 2:56:05 AM

   @7 Ulrich, I would be very happy, would even prefer it, if the applications were 8.5.2 Xpages only and that way the same applications could be intranet, extranet or standard client based.

   Its a virtuous circle, the more customers that stay on recent releases the less chance they will get left behind.

   Sean

1. 17  Ulrich Krause http://www.eknori.de | 6/22/2010 3:02:17 AM

   @Ingo (14):

   " ... But are customers really able to fix Bugs in XPages Apps? Don't think so. "

   Chances are that at least even a customer is able to describe the bug and report it. And if there are people feeling responsible to look into the bug reports, these issues would get fixed as soon as a fix is available. Take the pressure from IBM to take care about every little bug in a TEMPLATE. This work can be done by (parts of)the community.

   What choice do you have today? You find a bug and open a PMR. OK ... Then wait ...

1. 18  Ian Randall  | 6/22/2010 3:04:37 AM

   If I understand Ed's (and therefore IBM's)reluctance with development of a new set of standard templates for the Notes/Domino platform is:

   a) The complexity of committing to 5 years of support.

   b) The testing on multiple platforms.

   c) The translating into all the languages that we ship Notes in.

   If we could constructively address these issues (and any others that IBM might have) through direct community involvement, then direct involvement by IBM with this project should be a less risky for IBM.

   On another point made by Ed, these new templates SHOULD be developed as a set of "complete enterprise-deployed solutions", not suitable just for large multi-nationals but for SME's as well. This could be used as a competitive weapon against SharePoint which only provides "starter apps". This might also expose the hidden reality and difficulty of using SharePoint to move beyond the starter app level.

   Personally, I would like to see a small set of standard Notes applications that have nothing to do with email and calendaring. In this way, even IBM Sales Reps would be given a concrete example of why the Notes/Domino platform is so good and are better than other collaborative platforms.

   Finally, it would also showcase the benefits of using Notes/Domino as a development platform and promote the benefits of developng using XPages to a wider developer & user audience.

1. 19  Patrick Kwinten http://quintessens.wordpress.com | 6/22/2010 3:21:57 AM

   Hi Ed,

   I did not knwo about this discussion so I posted some irritation about the IBM templates on my blog: { Link }

   Summary: IBM should really provide decent manuals for the applications you provide via OpenNTF (Mail, Blog, Discussion).

1. 20  LongLiveLotus  | 6/22/2010 3:31:43 AM

   @15 - Whilst my primary view is that IBM should provide a slick-seven or whatever then I also agree with this standpoint, without the (well documented, with eg's) hooks then where does your average SMB customer (that doesnt use BP's) go or do for apps?

   If IBM won't provide them then please find some money from IBM's massive coffers to pay the guys that are experts in the field and are long term committed to best of breed app's - the Biz Partners. Think Quickr app templates (Scott?) - they worked didnt they??

1. 21  Gaby Spaszewski  | 6/22/2010 4:21:58 AM

   @8: Peter, I totally agree with your quote:

   '... The Discussion , Document Library, and TeamRoom templates were the core ones that people always requested but they have become outdated. People seem to be looking for shared file stores, wikis, blogs, waves. Kind of what I could provide with Lotus Connections or Quickr. But in a Notes-only shop they want them in Notes. '

   We are one of these 'Notes-Only' shops and we have been using the standard templates like Document Library or Teamroom for years (we made some changes to them to enhance the functonality because IBM didn't include new features any more) and we don't want to buy Quickr or Lotus connections just to get mordernized templates which have always been included in Notes for free. We want the standard templates modernized - they work perfectly for our needs.

1. 22  MIke Brown http://www.browniesblog.com | 6/22/2010 4:39:30 AM

   @Ed,

   >> those apps are really "starter apps" rather than complete

   >> enterprise-deployed solutions. So they are an attention-getter

   >> but is it "the" thing selling SharePoint? I don't think so.

   That's not my experience, Ed. Those start apps are exactly what's selling it, at least to the company's managers.

   What happens is that those managers are able to easily set up shared spaces and document management and hey presto: suddenly, they know all about IT!!!

   The next step (in their minds) is "if it's so easy to setup those kind of apps in Sharepoint, then I'll bet it's hardly any more difficult to do all of our other apps in it too!" Before you know it they're talking as if they can replace the company mainframe with a couple of Sharepoint templates.

   At this point, of course, the wheels fall seriously off their wagon. They find out that developing proper apps in Sharepoint is no easier than in anything else. In fact, in many regards, it's a lot harder.

   But by then the damage is done. The bigwig managers have already nailed their colours to the Sharepoint mast. You think they're all going to admit that they were wrong just because the people in the IT trenches are telling them? A brave few might; and some companies have given up on Sharepoint, but they'll be the exception IMHO. Most will carry on throwing money at Microsoft and their contractors rather than admit that they fouled up.

1. 23  Barry McGovern  | 6/22/2010 5:25:55 AM

   Sorry Ed. I 100% do not agree with you on this. Good modern templates are absolutely needed for all the reasons stated above.

   This also goes back to previous discussions about documentation and getting new developers into the system. I know I learned how to program Notes by studying the templates and using the documentation. I'm sure there are quite a few others here that did the same.

   New programmers have none of this. The templates and documentation are now useless. I can not even imagine trying to learn Notes/Domino programming now.

   I'm sorry - IBM really needs good modern templates and complete documentation. This discussion is a great start. Please don't let it stop here.

1. 24  Kevin  | 6/22/2010 5:37:27 AM

   What would be nice to see is a sidebar plugin that let me view/purchase from the 'app store'/catalog.

   A carousal type UI with meaningful descriptions, links to video's of the app etc.

   Many productivity addon's could be sold directly to users and not to IT departments.

1. 25  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/22/2010 5:52:15 AM
   
   

   @21 I didn't preclude the notion of modernizing the templates we do ship already :-)

   @9 Hmm, wouldn't that tell our other 50,000 customers to expect attack, meaning fait accompli? Sort of self-creating in the product FUD. Unfortunately.

   @4 With Quickr, Quickr is meant to be an out of the box solution for team spaces. So yes, there is a marked difference in our strategies. Even then, many of the templates are provided by SNAPPS; I don't want to speak to business arrangements there. It is a different scenario than Notes.

   @15 I agree with you. I want our calendar API badly (though Tungle seems to have figured out exactly what they needed to do without it) and others as well.

   ----------------

   OK so here's the real provocative coming at comment #25, Mr. Heidloff please do not have a heart attack:

   Since only Mr. Krause seems willing to buy into the vision of IBM contributing application-level work to OpenNTF, maybe we should pull resource from OpenNTF and put that resource into some other aspect of the issues discussed here. In other words, there aren't enough people to do everything, so if IBM's code contributions to OpenNTF aren't part of the solution, maybe it's the wrong activity.

   (goes to breakfast waiting for screen to explode upon return)

1. 26  GarryL  | 6/22/2010 6:00:16 AM

   First off it's great this is being discussed (again!) :)

   No updated apps? Wow. I guess I have been a bit naive in waiting for some of these. I kinda figured that there simply was no time given the resources to get 8.x up and out and I was hoping that now things are getting more stable then some development time would become available and we'd see something. I guess not. I always thought that you had the built in apps to simply let you actually do something other than mail with the product, without needing development. Yes you can buy applications for specific purposes but really, things like teamrooms, I thought, were the whole point in having an integrated platform.

   @8 "The Discussion , Document Library, and TeamRoom templates were the core ones that people always requested but they have become outdated. People seem to be looking for shared file stores, wikis, blogs, waves” - This is exactly what is happening here.

   @17 " Take the pressure from IBM to take care about every little bug in a TEMPLATE. This work can be done by (parts of) the community. " - Take the pressure from IBM? This is the same IBM with 386,000 employees and nigh on a $100 billion turnover, right? Hmmm...

   @21 "We want the standard templates modernized - they work perfectly for our needs." - Agreed, but from what I've read it is not really going to happen, primarily because there is no new licence stream for IBM?

   @22 "What happens is that those managers are able to easily set up shared spaces and document management and hey presto: suddenly, they know all about IT!!!" - Bingo. "Hey we don't need IT to do this" (click, click, click).."Look, our own shared space!"...(a month or two later)..."Hey can we add in XYZ to our space?"..Then you're in deep.

   It looks nice and modern and users love the ability to just 'get on with it'. However you're completely right - there is a mountain of hype around SharePoint but in reality it is just as hard as anything else out there to develop in. And a bugger to patch I hear. But its user led.

   If you have your own in-house development then sure, open templates can be a good source and there are some truly, truly excellent ones out there. But in all reality do SME's have either the knowledge or inclination to go elsewhere and get non-IBM supported apps? Isn't that where SharePoint is winning - that the basic, attractive file store/collaboration space it provides is mostly what people want? They certain seem to have found their sweet spot. I don’t think pointing to openNTF is a substitute for having some modern supported apps out of the box as per the main competitor.

   There is too much competition within IBM’s catalog (QuickR, Connections (and I still can’t see why these two wouldn’t be merged), webspere portal etc) and the fact that IGS will happily rip-out IBM’s own products and put competitors in. I get an inkling that there is a belief that by not modernising the provided apps, customers will seek out alternative IBM applications as above. In reality it would seem that many are taking the opportunity to look around and are picking on the current perceived leader in the space. Surely that’s not good for either Notes or IBM?

   Does not make sense to me.

1. 27  GarryL  | 6/22/2010 6:05:14 AM

   @25 "@21 I didn't preclude the notion of modernizing the templates we do ship already :-)"

   Great - this is an answer to some of concerns in the posts, but we have been waiting an awfully time long so far.....

1. 28  Barry McGovern  | 6/22/2010 6:17:38 AM

   @25 - Absolutely Yes - Templates and Documentation need to be completed before OpenNTF and other extraneous support systems are supported.

   Ideally I'm sure we all would love to see IBM put additional resources into this, and not just reallocate existing ones.

   But I would prioritize #1 Documentation, #2 Templates, #3 OpenNTF, Wikis, Books, etc.

1. 29  Patrick Kwinten http://quintessens.wordpress.com | 6/22/2010 6:40:02 AM

   reallocate existing ones... { Link }

1. 30  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/22/2010 6:41:06 AM
   
   

   @26 "Take the pressure from IBM? This is the same IBM with 386,000 employees and nigh on a $100 billion turnover, right?"

   Ah, we can't both love being part of IBM and then wonder why IBM has lots of different priorities in addition to making Notes successful. Each business runs as its own business. That means the numbers for both people and revenue are quite a bit different as I look at what opportunities we have around Notes/Domino, and any tradeoffs vs. the rest of Lotus, IBM software, IBM overall. This is the core challenge and why we have these discussions.

1. 31  Declan Lynch http://www.qtzar.com | 6/22/2010 7:15:02 AM

   "The reality is the complexity of committing to 5 years of support, testing on multiple platforms, translating into all the languages that we ship Notes in....I would rather not try than to do it and not do it well."

   The original Nifty Fifty were all ENGLISH ONLY. They were NOT SUPPORTED and yes, they were just Starter Apps. They had special instructions on how they could be demoed as well as instructions for the developer that told them what techniques were used to create the apps.

   The aim of the original Nifty Fifty was two-fold. It provided the sales people with a bunch of examples that they could show off to Management that would 'plant the seed' of what could be done with the IBM Lotus Domino infrastructure. It also provided inhouse developers a starting point for building apps that would fit the business needs of the company.

   I suspect that a lot of the companies that currently use Notes/Domino had that seed planted a long time ago and the management saw the potential and that is why they decided to use that platform.

   Now the Sharepoint sales reps are using their 'starter apps' to plant the seed that Sharepoint is the way to go while the IBM guys have nothing to point to because managers don't care about OpenNTF. As soon as they hear open source they close their ears because they just don't trust those words.

   Of course the IBM sales reps would actually have to care about trying to sell Notes/Domino first and I think that's a totally different story.

1. 32  Wayne Sobers  | 6/22/2010 7:19:56 AM

   Some competitive reconnaissance is required.

   Figure out the big draw to basic Sharpoint. So far it appears to be simple document management, or FileServer 2.0.

   Make a spec and create a competition on OpenNtf to build it. Include in the rules that the winning template will be open sourced.

   Next, you do need to update the templates. Todo, Teamroom, ,Document library and Department Address books look the same as they did in 2004. This is one reason people think Notes is stagnating. You need to update the UI programmatic surfaces. It doesn't have to be huge like XPages, but improve something. We've had single column list boxes for 15 years, when can we get multi-column list boxes. Start easy, if you have used the UI object in the client or administrator make it available to the programmer.

   I'm adding our company to the list (small as it is) that use the client predominantly.

   It is understandable that Web 2.0 is a big part of Domino, but it's not the only part.

1. 33  Darren Duke http://blog.darrenduke.net | 6/22/2010 7:22:00 AM

   The way I see IBM's involvement in OpenNTF is a bit like LotusLive Labs is to LotusLive. It is a place to test things out, be they involvement levels, specialized apps (XPages mobile) or even entire applications. I don't think that should change, after all the sandbox is dead, long live OpenNTF.

   I also love Nathan's idea of pimping OpenNTF in the designer and admin clients. Great stuff.

   But, and here is the but, IBM reps are not demoing Notes and Domino. Why? Because they can't. Beyond shiny new email there is really only an updated discussion database in there. Customer after customer deploys team-rooms, yet this has yet to be updated. And this is *exactly* where Google and MS are attacking the app dev part. Team-room to SharePoint conversions are a dime-a-dozen right now. I can just hear it, "Look Lotus customer, look at your team-room. Now look at SharePoint! Great isn't it compared to that 1999 application. And did I tell you this is also free....now lets talk about email". You may have gone to breakfast, but MS are eating it.

   I completely understand that a team-room makes $0 for IBM and Quickr makes $73 per seat.

   I completely understand that Quickr has the connectors and that alone is worth the price.

   I completely understand but so does Microsoft, Google and SalesForce.com.

   I completely understand but your Lotus Domino customers DO NOT.

1. 34  tom oneil  | 6/22/2010 7:25:43 AM

   @1 I apologize for my use of the word "craptastic" earlier to describe the Teamroom template. I was under the duress of tornado warnings. The correct word would be "antiquated." Lotus Notes R8 templates should not require Java applets to run on the web.

   @25 I am all for pulling IBM's support from OpenNTF if you guys would start re-factoring the pre-existing templates. Open source sites are never for the customer... it's for the programmers. You'll never sell to a CxO with the line "look at our open source community." You'll easily sell with the line "Oh yeah... that Sharepoint site? We have a database template that functions the same, and it comes free with Lotus Domino." Then, actually demo a nice looking template (instead of the current Teamroom).

   I know OpenNTF is a hot topic during User Group meetings and events like IamLUG... but OpenNTF should grow with the community. If zillions of developers are attracted to Designer Lite(tm) then OpenNTF should grow that much more without IBM's help.

   Those templates sell Domino and they kick-start development. I can't believe they stand neglected.

1. 35  Daniel Silva  | 6/22/2010 7:25:55 AM

   @26 "IGS will happily rip-out IBM’s own products and put competitors in." First of all, IGS doesn't "rip-out" anything. Also, of all the Domino customers that I've personally supported, none of them have migrated to a competitor's offering and continue to run Domino. Ultimately it is the customer's strategic decision that makes this call. We give customer choice as a service provider. I have not seen myself any one occasion where IGS took the initiative of moving customers in any direction whatsoever.

1. 36  Gaby Spaszewski  | 6/22/2010 7:40:49 AM

   @25 "@21 I didn't preclude the notion of modernizing the templates we do ship already :-)"

   That is very good to hear!! :-) And please don't just modernize the browser interface of the standard templates - we are only using the 'fat' Notes client (and I love it!!! :-) ).

1. 37  Richard Shergold  | 6/22/2010 7:47:33 AM

   @25. Ed, if you're going to take some resource from some place and put in some other place (as a means to solving some of the issues we have been discussing) my preference would be to take XPages out of the Designer Client, give it some alternative data sources in addition to Notes/Domino (SAP, SQL etc) and hey presto you have a new, interesting development platform that's cool and (most importantly for the CEOs) NOT Lotus Notes. Hey, you might even see some Developer books appearing in bookshops alongside all those Sharepoint and ASP.Net ones.

   (apologies for not being entirely on thread with this but if you are talking about resources I think its important to think of the bigger picture again)

   And by the way THANKS for having these discussions on your blog, it really is fantastic that we can all take part and that you listen.

1. 38  Erik Brooks  | 6/22/2010 8:15:38 AM

   @Ed - Re: @25 - yeah, I picked horrible, self-fulfilling-prophecy wording. Up too late, brain fried and all that. :-) But the concept may still work, just if worded differently. "Click here to engage IBM in helping you maximize you Notes/Domino investment." I don't like that wording either, but you get my point. I bet you guys could come up with something.

1. 39  Peter Presnell http://www.yellowverse.com | 6/22/2010 8:52:40 AM

   @25 - You can have your cake and eat it too. IBM are doing a great job with OpenNTF. The download numbers are up, but that doesn't get these applications into as many sites as the templates that are distributed with the product. So why not Open Source all the application templates (i.e. excluding Mail and the system templates) as was tried with Discussion but then ALSO distribute a collection of OpenNTF application template "with" the product. Work with the community to define the "nifty fifty", "sensational seven" or whatever the consensus is that would make a difference. Use IdeaJam to allow the community to vote on the applications most needed. Then stand outside your CEO's desk with an empty cup for a few days to secure a modest amount of $$ to invest in the project by way of incentives etc to encourage the community to pitch in and help work the Niklas, Steve etc to make those all happen. I tried unsuccessfully to get some more people involved with the Discussion Next Gen template but I don't think the project was "sexy" enough. If the project was to build an alternative to Wave then it might have had more appeal. I would hope the passion in the community is strong enough to encourage more involvement in building the example apps. I think IBM could contribute in a meaningful way by also making UI and graphic designers available to add some extra polish to those templates being added back to the product. If necessary package the templates as a separate download with the necessary legal disclaimers that accept the level of support etc that IBM can live with moving forward.

   Ed, Let me also be provocative... If IBM can't find a way to continue to invest in ways to help make Lotus Notes RAD with out of the box solutions then maybe IBM doesn't want Lotus Notes to be a successful application development platform badly enough. Lotus Notes was very strong as a application development platform at the time the designer client was free and accessible and there were relevant, useful templates out of the box that represented the capabilities of the product.

1. 40  Dan Soares  | 6/22/2010 8:55:54 AM

   Ed:

   << "The reality is the complexity of committing to 5 years of support, testing on multiple platforms, translating into all the languages that we ship Notes in....I would rather not try than to do it and not do it well." >>

   It seems to me that if Notes/Domino is losing seats to Sharepoint and if starter apps are what C-level managers find compelling and bring out-of-the-box value to the product, in terms of meeting immediate business needs, then IBM cannot afford to neglect providing bundled apps to meet and possibly even exceed the apps being provided by Sharepoint. Our claim to fame should be "We give you MORE business value (out of the box) than any other competing product put there.

   We appreciate your contribution to OpenNTF but it's not the same as bundled apps that have been modernized, documented and rigorously tested before deployment. Give those reps something to talk about besides email. Don't point them to an external site like OpenNTF to go download apps.

   And (slightly off topic here), PLEASE PLEASE come up with a strategy to bring Lotus/Domino back to schools/universities. The app dev strategy (IMHO) needs to be two-pronged: apps for businesses and apps for schools. They need to see how EASY it is to deploy, administer and develop in Lotus Domino.

   Thank you for listening to us. I'm looking forward to more from you as you digest all that has been written and strategize with your co-workers.

   Regards,

   Dan Soares

1. 41  Frank Paolino http://www.notesappstore.com/ | 6/22/2010 9:00:58 AM

   Ed, You've graciously taken a lot of heat this week and last. People are expressing their love of Lotus Notes by wanting to see it flourish and grow. And there is no lack of ideas floating around here and on other blogs.

   I do think expecting IBM to solve all the problems as it relates to ISVs, is a bit simplistic. At Lotusphere, there is a regular IBM gripe session among the Product Showcase exhibitors.

   My response always is "IBM needs to worry about IBM and we need to worry about ourselves".

   That is why I took action and did something by building a home for ISVs and resellers. If I thought only IBM should represent 3rd party Apps, I would not have built the NotesAppStore website. The fact is, IBM has to worry about IBM and its products, and that is as it should be.

   A "3rd party solution" as you refer to it is absolutely necessary in addition to the Greenhouse Catalog, because independent vendors need an independent voice. This is not anti-IBM. It is pro-ISV, and there is a big difference between the two.

   An ISV that expects IBM to provide all of their marketing needs creates 2 bad ISV behaviors:

   1. They become reliant on IBM

   2. They complain instead of taking action

   An ecosystem means some independent activity, and NotesAppStore has given a voice to ISVs. I get a lot of emails with suggestions and offers of help. My blog today is about one vendor who donated the site search:

   { Link }

   So, if you can't say it, I will "Stop complaining and start doing something". Get your App listed on the NotesAppStore. Point your customers there to express their feelings in a review. Get your resellers listed.

   The NotesAppStore site allows itself to be reviewed, too. Most are very positive on the need for such a site:

   { Link }

   In one very important way, this site can be used to fend off the "Google apps" message by pointing to the site and showing:

   1. The passion of the Lotus Notes and Domino ISVs,

   2. The maturity of these commercial Apps,

   3. The broad scope of the solutions and

   4. The customer testimonials.

   I am thinking of using this as the site tagline: "Connecting Buyers and Sellers of Lotus Notes Apps."

   But I am open to suggestion for that tagline, too, like everything on the site.

1. 42  Lars Berntrop-Bos http://www.bleedyellow.com/blogs/scriptlars/ | 6/22/2010 9:03:57 AM

   Another point: I would like to be able to develop in Domino Designer and administer my servers without having to run Windows in some shape or form. Eclipse runs fine on Windows, MacOSX and Linux. Please, please, please, unshackle Domino Designer and Domino Administrator from Windows

1. 43  Dan Soares  | 6/22/2010 9:10:02 AM

   one more thing...once the apps (templates) are in place... IBM needs to have a campaign along the lines of Apple's "There's an app for that".

   Sharepoint cannot compete with us in the arena of RAD app development. We should be framing the rules of engagement and winning this war not defensively responding to their claims.

   Dan

1. 44  Henning Heinz  | 6/22/2010 9:28:10 AM

   Well if there is really the question OpenNTF or updated templates then I would vote for the templates. I normally don't deploy OpenNTF applications because if those become abandoned I am not able to take over.

1. 45  John Head http://www.johndavidhead.com | 6/22/2010 9:29:29 AM

   @39 they did open source the 8.5.1 templates:

   - Mail

   - Personal Address Book

   - Teamroom

   - Domino Blog

   - Notebook

   - Widget Catalog

   - Eclipse Update Site

   - Doc Library

   read this ({ Link } ) to see the details - but all of those are individual projects on OpenNTF.org as of fall 2009. And the XPages Discussion template was added before that.

   People are extending them. I see a bunch of projects that do that. The problem is how do we get those modifications back to the customer (is that in the installer or published on LDD or whatever). I think IBM has taken a few good first steps - we need to get them to finish the process of circling back and getting these modifications into the product.

1. 46  Tripp Black http://www.mindwatering.com | 6/22/2010 9:36:06 AM

   Wow, we're already off to an incredible discussion.

   I concur, regarding a lot of what's been offered in feedback.

   1. Improve the templates.

   They don't have to show your cutting edge technologies, but they need to be clean and shine like iNotes. iNotes is awesome because it doesn't try to do anything except be a really great web mail client. It's better than OWA.

   If you want the SMB market, they are going to use the apps that come with the template (assuming they know the apps exist), which are selling points. It's like trying to sell a really good house with a yard that hasn't been touched in 15 years - no curb appeal to even get the potential buyer in the front door. The SMBs are the ones that will use the apps and then want to "hack" them, adding in functionality, customizing the apps to leverage their needs. It's at that point that the Notes platform has just been made their own.

   If you asked Notes shops why they stick with Notes, I'd bet the majority would say some version of "it's the apps".

   2. Documentation is Key.

   To me, the Documentation starting place is the About Document and Using Document. The About needs to give the standard overview, and the Using needs to tell you how to deploy with the roles/access to give users, and any version history. The Using also needs to include links to documentation. I think that wiki's, OpenNTF, and the Designer Docs are all really good places for formal and informal documentation. The issue I have is being thorough and up-to-date.

   Discussion has turned into the Blog. I like that the Blog template has been included since Domino 8. We have just never used it, as yet. We had our own internal apps that did blog entries. They are still called journals in our GUI, to show you their age. So up until last week we've been deploying or suggesting to clients the Blogsphere template. It's great. It has more features than needed, and the documentation is just enough to use and customize it. When we finally rolled out my blog and Nicki's new one (that replaces her journal blog), we decided to try the new one included with our 8.5 system. Creating the blog was incredibly easy, as was creating posts. It was the customization that was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because of NO DOCUMENTATION. It wasn't until I hit Steve's blog in a Google search and a link to it from the Domino wiki that I realized that the IBM template was something that Steve seemed to have originally authored. After I read the rest of customizing posts, including the great one on all the DXTags (which needs more documentation on what some of them do), that I got the paradigm and was off and running after a 30 minute read. However, I don't know if many developers would have bothered. They would have just gone elsewhere. I now think the template is great, but I wouldn't have thought as much because of the documentation - or lack thereof.

   Hence the issue. The Blog template does have about 10 pages in the Notes help. It's nice on creating and a fluff page on customization, but it's very likely customization would be desired. It doesn't need to be a Composite App or XPages. I has only a couple needs: links to Steve's site/blog and the Domino wiki to a landing page for customization, 2: Help for the bazillion fields in the configuration document to say how to use each group of fields in each tab.

   I hope to be able to find the time to add a blog entry on my own blog as a landing page for myself and others on what I learned about customizing the template.

   3. It's all about the Apps.

   Apps are what hook us. Apps are what converts us. Apps are what keeps us. This is why I'm a huge fan of Notes, a huge fan of backward compatibility, a huge fan of easy administration, RAD as a developer, and the high ROI that Lotus Notes delivers.

   On our own Mindwatering web site, we have a free apps page with a few our own mini-apps that we created, available for download. These free applications add great value, for a great product.

   It's an app server. It needs to be all about the apps.

1. 47  Peter Presnell http://www.yellowverse.com | 6/22/2010 9:51:26 AM

   @45 - John you are correct. But Discussion is the only one that IBM have plans to take back into the product.

1. 48  John Head http://www.johndavidhead.com | 6/22/2010 9:57:02 AM

   @47 Agreed, but that seems like something far easier to solve than starting from scratch. IBM should in scent people to extend those templates, submit them back to OpenNTF.org under the appropriate licenses, and get them thru the IBM testing cycle and get them in the box. Nothing will go into 8.5.2 at this point, so we are talking about a 2011 release anyways. No reason that process couldn't be approved now, a deadline set for submissions, and a process for review, acceptance, and documentation. And there could be two versions of each template in the installer - the IBM translated one and the OpenNTF.org extended templates. Then the customer can choose which to use.

1. 49  Declan Lynch http://www.qtzar.com | 6/22/2010 10:28:14 AM

   @48 John, Until I see a commitment statement from IBM saying that they will take OpenNTF templates back into the product then I believe it will never happen. And I'm not just talking about the templates that they gave to OpenNTF I mean other applications and templates also.

1. 50  John Head http://www.johndavidhead.com | 6/22/2010 10:37:57 AM

   @49 we agree Declan. I want to see that same commitment statement. And we have to start somewhere, so taking back existing template with modifications is probably easier than brand new apps. Just from an legal review and approval process. Right now - I would take a statement as saying they will take back one template and have it happen. Or take a template, review it, approve it, and send it out to every Lotus Sales rep with a quickstart guide to share with their customers. Anything is more than where we are today.

1. 51  Patrick Picard  | 6/22/2010 10:39:21 AM

   My suggestion is to ditch QuickR as a separate product and roll the functionality into core domino.

   The gives you a nifty 5 right there and provides document collaboration to users. Document collaboration in the domino world. M$ offers it for free w/ great integration with M$ office products.

1. 52  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 6/22/2010 10:40:32 AM

   @6 Ulrich - The other DominoTeamMailbox languages are currently being developed, yours wasn't the only translation offer. I'm very impressed with the support offered by the community in such a short time.

1. 53  GarryL  | 6/22/2010 10:50:40 AM

   @25 - Yes, I would much prefer resources working on out of the box stuff than anywhere else.

   @45 (and others) - Great though openNTF is, it is not a substitute for out of the box apps as per SharePoint. Business are not going to be interested in investing in a platform where the apps available, supported, from one vendor have to be taken, unsupported, from another site. Why have that hassle?

   The standard sharepoint site is better looking and easier to get going with for business people than anything out of the box with Domino (and note I am talking once these two systems are set-up - we know Domino is easier in that respect). We also know that it is much easier to extend system in Domino than SharePoint. Of course you can get similar Sharepoint functionality from Connections/Quickr, but thats the discussion.

   Maybe it is just me, but I really don't know what exactly is the IBM equivalent to Sharepoint?

   I also get confused between when you implement Quickr and when you choose Connections?

1. 54  David (The Notes Guy in Seattle)  | 6/22/2010 11:57:22 AM

   To quote the article in DeveloperWorks titled "The History of Notes and Domino":

   [ "Should we build applications in the product or should we allow it to be flexible and let users do it because we don't know what they will want?" They eventually opted for a flexible product that allowed users to build the applications they needed. Thus, Notes architecture used a building block approach; you could construct group textual applications by piecing together the various services that are available. "This was big in the success of the product," stated Halvorsen. "In no case do we say, 'no, this is the only way you can do it.'" Lotus Notes has survived the changes in the industry because it is a flexible product users can customize to fit their changing needs.]

   (link to article: { Link } )

   I think this concept is still sound. But there is great value in providing as many of those building blocks that could be widely used. Let's face it, the most efficient programmers reuse more code than they write.

   As you look at promoting OpenNTF, don't forget to promote the sandbox. ( { Link } )

   Once upon a time this was the place to go to for many cool utilities and tools as well as bits of code. It allowed the community to contribute, though that feature was turned off at some point.

1. 55  Wayne Sobers  | 6/22/2010 12:00:11 PM

   Snapps have some free Quickr templates which I think would work very well as straight forward Notes templates. QIssues and QProject are two that look very interesting.

   Given the state of the current Client capabilities, would it be possible to port these templates to Notes?

1. 56  David Bell  | 6/22/2010 12:25:04 PM

   @53 - "Maybe it is just me, but I really don't know what exactly is the IBM equivalent to Sharepoint?"

   I think this is partly due to the fact that MS positions Sharepoint as its answer to everything and there is no one-to-one mapping in the IBM portfolio.

   Sharepoint is weak in virtually everything it does because MS is trying to make it be the solution to every problem, outside of email.

   As for Quickr and Connections. Quickr is based around a structured team room style with centralized and restrictive (i.e. enforced access control) model where the places are likely to have a longer life cycle. Connections is designed around a less structured, social and hence more open / opt in kind of model where data and interaction is more ad-hoc and transient in nature.

1. 57  Eric Mack http://www.EricMackOnline.com | 6/22/2010 1:40:57 PM

   In response to the comment about ISVs upgrading and giving away revised IBM templates with enhanced functionality, we've been doing just that. The eProductivity reference database is a free download on our site { Link }

   David Allan and I recorded a webinar on this and I will post the replay soon. The download is available today at the link above., For people that attended the Webinar that I did with David Allen, we made a special version of this database available that included many of David's documents on the GTD methodology for free as well. It's worked well for us and I encourage other ISVs to consider this approach for their own apps if appropriate.

   Naturally, our hope is that people find value and choose to explore our other (not free) applications on the web site.

   Anyway, it's just an example.

1. 58  Ferdy http://www.ferdychristant.com | 6/22/2010 1:58:02 PM

   Very positive and fair discussion here. Just want to add my contribution to it.

   I know from experience that Domino beats Sharepoint hands down in allmost every area:

   - Easier to install and maintain, less personell needed

   - Less hardware required, probably less software license costs

   - Shorter development times. True RAD

   - Robust feature set unique for this platform: replication, OOTB security, integrated agents, etc

   What do all of these things have in common? Costs. Low costs versus a high value. And speed. You would think that this is an easy sell in the midst of an economic crisis. This is what everybody is looking for in these times.

   Still, the product is suffering from poor marketing, a lack of new development talent, a poor "legacy" image, and an unclear roadmap (perceived as such, not factual).

   Over the last weeks there have been so many suggestions to turn the tide that I will not attempt to repeat them here. But when it comes to out of the box templates and apps, I think it is a missed opportunity to not invest in them. Sharepoint OOTB functionality for key collaboration, such as Wikis, Blogs, etc, really sucks. Big time. This is an area where you can beat them easily. If the combined resources of IBM and/or the community cannot even produce lets say 10 solid, good looking sexy apps that you can use directly after installation then nobody can and all hope is lost.

   Even dirt cheap PHP hosts allow you to select from dozens of standard apps with a one-click installation mechanism nowadays. I know, they did not fund the creation of those apps, but they sure understand the speed and ease of use that their customers expect. And what is 10 apps to support for 5 years really? IT departments in large organizations may support hundreds of them, and they're not even IT companies.

   CIOs in large companies do not have time to deeply analyze and study platforms, their decisions are often superficial and based on emotions. They know money (good for their targets) and they know sexy (good for their customers, being the users). Be in such meetings and tell them how Domino is cheaper in every possible way. Next, show them in real time how awesome the standard apps are and install them live using one click. They will be impressed.

   Just thinking out loud and rambling you know. I find it such a shame that such a valuable products has such a poor image, or sometimes not even any image at all.

1. 59  Eris  | 6/22/2010 2:01:27 PM

   It's funny we can't export the views to symphony or excel!!!

   90% use Excel!!! and symphony is a Lotus-Product....

   @ Ulrich,

   your translation is super, but the database is not up to date!!! see UI.

   @Ed you speak about XPage an quickr, but it's very slow and you can not use it....

1. 60  GarryL  | 6/22/2010 3:19:04 PM

   @35 - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that IGS actively sought to move any customers away. Just saying that they will do anything the customer requires. I wonder that when a customer does a move away from, say, Domino to Exchange, if that get analysed or even if some discussions go on beforehand over the IBM portfolio. I guess from IGS's point of view as long as they are taking revenue it does not matter.

   @56 - Well it would appear that MS's 'Jack of all trades, master of none' approach is working. Even though it may be weak, it does have lots more in the box and is therefore perceived as value? With reference to Quickr/Connections - I still say there is a large overlap between the two products. Someone before suggested merging the functionality of Quickr into domino. Alternatively take the bits missing from connections and just run with connections. I think it would certainly bring more clarity to the market.

   @58 "Still, the product is suffering from poor marketing, a lack of new development talent, a poor "legacy" image, and an unclear roadmap (perceived as such, not factual). " - I'd disagree in that I still don't think there is a clear understanding how IBM wants Domino, Quickr, Connections & websphere portal to hang out together.

1. 61  ARS development http://www.arsnet.eu | 6/22/2010 3:33:15 PM

   @59 Eris

   you dont need to export it, you are able to bind it directly in Excel via WebServices and you Retrieve current, correct and complete Information in real-time like in internet Business Office Services 2.0 (iBOS) xlReports -> iBOS20-xl-DE.ppt.pdf

   { Link }

   or in word with another Add ins -> iBOS%202.0.2-EN.pdf

   { Link }

1. 62  Tripp Black http://www.mindwatering.com | 6/22/2010 4:32:59 PM

   @59,

   You can export to CSV from any Notes view these days. CSV is standard for any spreadsheet program. It's then just a matter of opening in your spreadsheet of choice. No need to buy anything extra unless there's a cool additional feature you cannot live without.

   @46

   Follow-up post to myself. I'v added a blog entry of our deployment and customization of the blog template. It's a great read that I wish I had first starting out:

   { Link }

   It's the missing Using Document to use old terminology.

1. 63  Keith Brooks http://www.vanessabrooks.com | 6/22/2010 7:35:33 PM

   While I agree some nice new apps would be great, I get a lot of mileage from sidebar widgets, some of which I have created on the fly with customers to show how easy a Dashboard can be created.

   Granted these are not full blown apps or even richly designed but the simplicity is there and that goes far.

   Openntf is great as newer apps go in which leverage more modern coding that helps.

   What would the top 15 apps(not sidebar apps) be, if we could even make them or decide on them?

   Openntf could supply them, if we knew what was wanted.

   I have some ideas but they involve multiple products, voice and GPS/Mapping software. I will try to post some ideas to my blog later.

1. 64  peter b  | 6/22/2010 7:45:01 PM

   @51 My suggestion is to ditch QuickR as a separate product and roll the functionality into core domino.

   +1 to this idea.

   What is it with all these separate products anyway.

   IBM seems to be pulling itself in many different directions.

   Why not have one good product and get all your teams working on it.

1. 65  Paul Gagnon  | 6/22/2010 9:55:32 PM

   Last week, I dusted off a Smartsuite 98 cd so I could install Lotus 123 just to be able to open an .xls spreadsheet and save it as a .wk4 so I could import the data into a Notes app I just built. It's June, 2010. This is so basic. *shakes head*

   All this talk of sharepoint in the last week has suddenly got me interested in digging deeper, and wow, I'm "mashing-up" a straightforward set of WSS sites right now, and I'm having a ball doing it.

1. 66  Richard Schwartz http://www.poweroftheschwartz.com | 6/23/2010 12:28:33 AM

   I know this conversation has centered around comparison with SharePoint, but let's forget about the SharePoint samples. Let's talk about Excel.

   I'll bet the number of people who use Excel + SharePoint for ad hoc applications dwarfs the number who actually use the sample SharePoint applications. And I'll bet the number of people who use Excel plus Domino doclibs is pretty substantial in comparison to the number who use any of the OpenNTF apps, too.

   Excel comes with loads of templates. Everywhere I go I see people using Excel for jobs that Notes and Domino would be the much better tool for. These people share their spreadsheets in Sharepoint or via email, and they're happy with this because this is what they have... and this is what they know. This is the most primitive form of collaboration and Notes and Domino can do so much better, but it's just not visible enough.

   Forget about SharePoint. Excel, and the way people work with it so willingly simply because they know that they can get their work done with it -- no matter how inefficiently, is the compelling reason why Lotus needs to be doing something. SharePoint just adds to the case because it provides a sheen of collaboration around what is still really primitive (but effective) applications.

   Note that I didn't say what the "something" that Lotus needs to do is. I'm not saying that Lotus needs to be creating sample applications. IMHO what Lotus needs to do is solve two problems: visibility and installability for applications, and let the community do the rest.

   For some, the answer to the first of these questions has been "app store" for quite a while. If you were to go back and look at previous threads about an app store for Notes and Domino, though, you will find that I have been quite the skeptic. In the last hour or so, however, I've come to the realization that if support and translation are apparently insurmountable obstacles to IBM putting out sample apps, then what IBM has to do is find a way to put 3rd party sample apps in customers' faces and develop an easy deployment model for those apps, and that's pretty much what an app store is all about.

   But the reasons I've been skeptical of an app store have not gone away. Installability is a huge problem, and its not just a technical problem, because administrators (for good reasons, mind you) are a roadblock to installation of apps. IMHO the first thing we need to do in order to solve the visibility and installability problems is re-think the question of what a Notes and Domino app is.

   So, here's a bit of a radical idea... IBM should develop a single "Collaboration Space" template that can be deployed in two modes: Personal Collaboration Space, and Team Collaboration Space. This template is not an application, per se. It is mostly an empty shell that provides a home for a new type of application. It contains an import mechanism that can connect to OpenNTF and/or other sites to download installable applications that are not NSFs in their own right. These downloaded applications actually just consist of a set of design elements and data notes that plug into a framework provided by the Collaboration Space template. Once an installation wizard puts everything where it needs to be, a new feature set becomes available in the collaboration space.

   Want an expense approval app for your company? Just download it into a Team Collaboration Space that is open to all employees. The installation wizard for the downloaded app will insert the design elements and data notes, prompt for whatever other info it needs to define roles, etc., and then it will register the app instance in a central app directory so that whenever a user enters his own Personal Collaboration Space he sees an "Expense Reporting" link that takes him to the company-wide Team Collaboration Space. Administrators deploy these spaces for users and teams, assign ownership privileges to determine who can download new apps into the spaces, and they can enable connections only to sites that they trust for downloadable applications.

   This way, IBM supports and translates just one Collaboration Space template. IBM also supports a web site that provides a catalog of sites that have downloadable applications, with OpenNTF getting top billing. Perhaps IBM also rigs the mail template so that it provides quick access to the specific personal and team collaboration spaces each user has access to. And IBM needs to promote the heck out of the Collaboration Spaces concept.

   The community and partners do the rest to supply the sample apps.

1. 67  GarryL  | 6/23/2010 2:54:00 AM

   @64 "What is it with all these separate products anyway. IBM seems to be pulling itself in many different directions."

   +1 for that. It is confusing, certainly in the SME market. MS has a somewhat easier time placing their major server products here-

   Mail - Exchange

   Database - SQL server

   'Collaboration' - Sharepoint

   IBM has:

   Domino/Notes

   Quickr (Domino)

   Quickr (J2EE)

   Connections

   Websphere

   I just see far less application overlap with MS, regardless of how good, bad or indifferent the actual product is. It is interesting that recently blogged moves have been to SharePoint and not another IBM product.

   IBM, as usual, has some fantastic products. Maybe we just need come clarity?

1. 68  Gaby Spaszewski  | 6/23/2010 2:57:42 AM

   @51 My suggestion is to ditch QuickR as a separate product and roll the functionality into core domino.

   ++++1 for this idea also from me!

1. 69  Axel  | 6/23/2010 3:11:45 AM

   Its allways a double edged sword.

   Have seen organizations that build a lot of their applications on Teamrooms of different versions of Notes. They twiddled the design a bit to synch the application with their users expectations.

   Its a good example for an understanding of "pragmatism" a wee bit different from mine. Such practice will end in a maintenance nightmare pretty soon.

   I think its good a idea to create getting started apps via openNTF or similar chanels. Maybe someone could create a selection of openNTF templates. Kind of like openNTF Power Suite.

   IBM could set some incentives by provide some financing for the development of openNTF power suite application.

   Possibly freelancers, developers in notes departments and business partners are better in creating such getting started apps as they are closer to the customers.

1. 70  GarryL  | 6/23/2010 3:24:56 AM

   @69 - Again, great though some of the openNTF templates are, they are still not supported in a business sense and they are just not a click,click,click out of the box. Some modern webby 2.0 apps (client and web) are needed within the product.

   Its obvious that many Domino sites would be much happier if IBM put some modern collaboration apps into the box, rather than making them look elsewhere in the portfolio. It didn't work for Workplace and I can't see why it would work now.

   As Peter said in @8 "People seem to be looking for shared file stores, wikis, blogs, waves". The seemingly stubborn relutance to make this happen does suggest they want you look elsewhere.

   We, as a 100+ 5YearsAndCounting Domino SME user, are watching with this space with interest.

1. 71  Henning Heinz  | 6/23/2010 3:48:40 AM

   If there are no resources for some templates I doubt that "ditching" QuickR would be a good idea. That could mean that you have a lot of additional code in Domino that is not going to be maintained (as there as no resources for things that do not feed the bottom line).

   One could argue why hardly anyone seems to deploy the free (if you are on Passport Advantage) version of QuickR. I haven't seen it at any customer site yet (which does not mean a lot).

1. 72  GarryL  | 6/23/2010 4:21:56 AM

   @71 "..lot of additional code in Domino that is not going to be maintained (as there as no resources for things that do not feed the bottom line)." - What you are saying is that nobody needs it or will use it. Interesting. May I ask where your assumptions are from?

   "why hardly anyone seems to deploy the free (if you are on Passport Advantage) version of QuickR" - Showstopper for us was that you can't have folders in the Quickr Entry version you have entitledment to - flat view only, at least when we last looked. Unusable when you get to a reasonable number of files. Available in the full version though.

   Would look to use it if it had the same functionality is the full one (or at least not cut down so much) and was baked into Domino. Would be the new Teamroom.

1. 73  Michael Falstrup http://www.intelliglobe.dk | 6/23/2010 4:56:09 AM

   @66 Richard

   I like the idea of Collaboration Spaces and would extend on that in regards to standard templates from IBM when deploying the product.

   I urge Ed and his good people to take a good look at how others are doing and I'm not talking about MS or Apple, even though i like the Apple approach. What I'm talking about is Ubuntu Linux LTS model and the PhP Community and their mods/plug-in implementations.

   IBM should think about the developing approach in Notes/Domino and i can see that some of the ideas i have are in motion in 8.5.2, with self developed Xpage controls.

   Here is my two cents:

   1. IBM should utilize the mechanism, already present in Eclipse, that makes it easy to share notes projects so more developers from different locations can work on the same project, with version trace, check-in and -out and change documentation. I know there is some feature in Notes Designer 8.5.1 to share project through a SVN repository, but it needs to be normalized, supported, announced to the community AND DOCUMENTED ;-D.

   OpenNFT could be an excellent vendor for such a Notes Community SVN Repository or Collaboration Space, if you like.

   2. IBM should accept the commitment and make LTS Templates, fully Xpage enabled, on each major Notes/Domino release. This means that IBM only needs a support cycle that runs form one major release to the next. Put these LTS template on open source (OpenNTF) as you are already doing and let the community contribute to its bug fixing, evolvement and translating. At the next major release IBM could then decide to implement those bug fixes, translations and the new features they deem appropriate into the next LTS version of the Template i.e. standard templates distributed with Notes/domino evolves with direct involvement from community.

   3. IBM should also think of the way they do extensions to the Rich Client, through the Application Management system and rethink this on Apps level. In PhP Apps, new functionality, languages and design are added to the application through a mods/plug-in system, much like the Firefox Add-on and Notes Installation Management, but its on Apps level and not Client level. I would like to see IBM make an API, SDK or some other mechanism that could support such features, so developers inside as well as outside the Notes Community could contribute to the platform and Apps other than through DXL import/Export.

   This should be supported by an Mods/plug-in/add-on store like the Apps store for Apps or it could simply be a section of the Apps Store.

   Now, wouldn't it be easy for IBM to make one LTS Template in English and let the community translate it through the mods/plug-ins/add-on system?

   @51 My suggestion is to ditch QuickR as a separate product and roll the functionality into core domino.

   +++1

1. 74  Henning Heinz  | 6/23/2010 6:11:09 AM

   @GaryL No that is not what I tried to say.

   If IBM says they are not going to spend any new resources to produce templates, they won't probably add resources for maintaining a merged into Domino, then "free", QuickR code either.

   So my point is. If IBM says they are not doing free templates because it only costs then why should they maintain the QuickR code if it is merged into the Domino server!?

   Merging QuickR into Domino in consequence would kill the code.

   I have my own pov about QuickR but this would be totally off-topic.

1. 75  Alexey Katyushyn  | 6/23/2010 6:15:16 AM

   1. In the standard package of LND should be useful and, attractive and supportable templates!

   Suppose the customer bought LND, installed, and that was the result? Platform?

   - Templates should demonstrate the ability of the product/platform.

   - To be functionally adequate and useful for SMB needs (if IBM plans to work in this market). SMBs do not have the resources for self-application development.

   OpenNTF - this is a very nice addition and opportunities for customers. But if the customer goes to an open templates, he can select and open platform, such as LAMP in the feature.

   2. Templates should be compatible with previous versions!

   Take a real application, created from a template Discussion 7-th version with a sufficient number of documents. Convert it to the latest version and see what happened through the new cool xPages interface:

   - Hyperlink to a document, created in a client, called to an outdated web form

   - Problem with attachments: something seen only in the client, something only in the browser

   - Problem with nested categorization and a cloud of tags

   - Etc.

   I am always glad excellent compatibility in LND. Normally my users use clients of three different versions. And the problems with application compatibility was not (4,4.1,4.5; 4.5,4.6,5; 5,6,6.5, 6,6.5,7, 7,8). Same at the expense of server platforms: NetWare-> NT4-> Win2000-> Win2003-> Linux. And the upgrade template was carried out almost painlessly. Why? Because this product is an enterprise-class. And I want this level of compatibility go on!

   3. Maturity of xPages technology

   If xPages technology such a wonderful, why in releases 8.5, 8.5.1 (and perhaps 8.5.2) comes only ONE template, implemented with its use? I watched the incompatibility of xPages-application during the transition from 8.5 to 8.5.1. And much remains to be done to interest the ordinary Lotus developers. I will say that xPages will be ready for mass use, when iNotes will be implemented on it.

   4. Make QuickR module LND, even if it is for a separate license fee.

   This is normal when the product is licensed by module. But the benefits to the face: reducing the cost of promotion, to develop a single modularity product, instead of two. More understandable for customers, what product/module to choose, especially in comparison with the product portfolio of MS.

   5. A complete Java-development environment

   As a developer, I have long wondered when IBM will make a full-fledged Java-development environment for LND.

   Ed, we love LND! And we want a good present and future for LND, community, customers and IBM!

   And thanks for the opportunity to give feedback.

1. 76  Jfranchetti  | 6/23/2010 6:49:09 AM

   How about making generic versions of the SAP Alloy apps?

   Time reporting

   Vacation and leave request

   Contact management

   Report generation

   Work item processing

   Focus on workflow apps that leverage the fact that you are in your email client already.

1. 77  Wayne Sobers  | 6/23/2010 7:53:24 AM

   @66 + 1.

   I think that is an excellent idea! This is an area which has huge potential and is being ignored.

   WordPro, 1-2-3 and Excel came with some good templates. Half of the invoices from our small contractors are based on the Excel Invoice template. Convert these templates to Notes and add these to the show-and-tell.

   I also think IBM should poll the smaller companies, and I mean small as in under 500 personnel and find out what other applications would be useful other than Connections, Quickr and Websphere.

   For some of these companies you are not going to sell a big infrastructure product, but you could show them how to leverage their investment in Notes and build on existing templates.

   And sure, they may not bring in loads of new licenses, but you will have customers who evangelize the product rather than those who are looking for excuses to jump ship.

1. 78  GarryL  | 6/23/2010 9:23:39 AM

   @74 Ah, I see your point of view.

1. 79  Stuart McIntyre  | 6/23/2010 3:37:45 PM

   @lots of you. I already made my feelings known on the future of Quickr as a seperate package on the LotusKnows ideajam and elsewhere. I certainly geel that many of the SNAPPs apps could be ported to plain Domino and be really usefull.

   @76 I *love* that idea!

1. 80  Jonathan Griep http://www.jgriep.com | 6/25/2010 10:32:00 PM

   Develop the apps? Why? Buy/license the 5 best apps already available from Business Partners and make them part of the base product.

1. 81  Mike McP  | 6/29/2010 4:36:36 PM

   @68/@51 Agreed! I'm not sure how much revenue Quicker Notes is generating, but that's going to need to be looked at to see if this idea is feasible. Everytime I look at that app, even when I was at LS07 demo, I kept thinking 'this is just a domino app'. Three years later I still think it's just a Domino app.

   I can't believe I'm so late to this post, but it's not terribly difficult to handle translation to your core six or so languages. If that's not 'doing it right', then you're setting the bar too high, and you'll never deliver. Build the language file dynamically and it can be extended by BPs if they desire to take a couple hours to translate.

   Regarding Sharepoint freebies not selling sharepoint, that's entirely possible, but it's helping the uptake of SP Services. Businesses feel they're off the ground running on s Sharepoint, and can start customizing/buying apps later. Your templates need to be higher quality, and more business related.

   Regarding opensourced templates, they're a step in the right direction, but they need a strategy, and some apps need to come out of the box on the install. If you can't deliver good IBM apps, i can't imagine IBM taking on the liability of delivering 'light' versions of 3rd party apps out of the box.

   "I completely understand that a team-room makes $0 for IBM and Quickr makes $73 per seat."

   I would argue this. Team Room sold lotus clients, and kept them there. Now it's antiquated, but the potential for an updated suite of apps to sell Notes CALs is there.

   I could go on for days on this topic, so I'm gonna cut it short, but I'm glad it's being discussed, and hopefully addressed.

1. 82  Michael Falstrup http://www.intelliglobe.dk | 7/1/2010 6:51:13 AM

   @ED

   Be honest with me Ed ;-D

   What is the Plan / Future for Notes/Domino!!? Is it the new OS/2!? Will it die slowly, so that partners can find new ways or are you actually serious about the product!!?? Yours (IBM's) actions doesn't exactly comfort me.

   1. Honestly, we cannot make a living on Notes/Domino alone and Quickr, SameTime and Websphere aren't exactly high pitch selleing items in my country.

   2. And now you take away our possibility to sell the other Lotus products, unless we get certified. This means that our customers now will have to deal with potentially 4 suppliers on the same brand, 1 for notes/domino, 1 for SameTime, 1 for Quickr and 1 for Websphere and we cannot even get sales kickoff through ISV mechanism either anymore.

   3. All you do on the platform seems half hear-ted. You don't finish new features (Xpages, composite app, eclipse designer), you don't support it fully (composite app), you miss out on documentation (Xpages, composite app) and it seems that all the new stuff is only made to get the feeling of the product evolving.

   4. You still have the strange "Only new license" strategy combined with the attitude "win some loose some" and completely ignore the application side of it ...... yeah well, why should I as partner give a d... then.

   I could be wrong Ed, but the future for us as partners seems gloomy and I fail to see the clear road, yellow brick road if you like, drawn by IBM that makes it possible for me to layout a strategy for my business.

1. 83  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/2/2010 11:11:38 PM
   
   

   @82 that anyone compares Notes/Domino, or really any contemporary IBM software, with OS/2, is really insulting to the thousands of us who work on Notes/Domino and tens of thousands who work at IBM software.

   I think the certification is a net-positive for customers and I've written so before (January/Lotusphere postings).

   I agree there needs to be more documentation, but as for finishing things, we sometimes take more than one release. There is more work in 8.5.2, a lot of it, to continue the XPages journey.

   Not going to be defensive here, but there are a heck of a lot of partners around the world making money on IBM Lotus solutions today.

1. 84  Michael Falstrup http://www.intelliglobe.dk | 7/8/2010 4:44:06 PM

   @83 Sorry, no insulting was intended and if anyone is, it should include myself as a YellowBleeder and Notes/Domino partner.

   When i wrote i wrote it from my point of view and we are loosing customers to MS, not only us but basically most partners in Denmark, that we know of.

   On many points the Lotus platform wins over MS without a fight but customers basically doesn't care, because MS is whats first on their mind, no matter what good arguments you come up with.

   And why is that exactly. Well brand awareness!! People are born and bread with the MS brand and only hear about IBM when it comes to servers, Mainframes and rarely about Lotus if ever, when IBM looses big orders or have Data-center crashes (Denmark).

   What people want are tools that looks good, are fast and are simple to use. Now Notes has come a long way from 7.x but still some way to go. Notes is still slow as a rich client the Workspace still looks like crap and needs to have Apple quality Database icons and smooth background that could be customized easily through preference settings. It just doesn't have the same sex appeal as MS and Apple has and IBM marketing or lack thereof isn't helping.

   Don't misunderstand me, i bleed yellow and love the platform with all its cons and pros and I'm very happy about the XPage efforts, which in my book only can progress too slow ;-D. Also looking forward to see some of those Vulcan ideas come to life.

   I'm sorry if i was harsh but we must be one of those unlucky partners loosing business instead of gaining it, but hey ... we live in MS Land, that might explain a thing or two.

   And finally Ed ..... you did open Pandora's box and i commend you for that.