Paul Thurott: The Dark Side of Windows Vista RC1

September 6 2006

When we have the so-called "Boss Loves Microsoft" conversation, one of the reasons often given for user preference for Outlook is that "it works like other Microsoft software" and thus "it's easier for our users" and "we won't have to do training".

In my experience, none of these supposed-truisms are actually true, but that never seems to get in the way of the story.  I've never seen a study that validates or proves the notion that users are more productive in an all-Microsoft environment.  Every time the subject of the dreaded F5 vs. F9 function keys in Notes comes up, someone quickly points out that even within Microsoft Office, these keys have different meanings from application to application.

From everything I've seen and read about Vista and Office 2007, Microsoft is about to take steps that ensure that this truism becomes one of the bigger red-herrings in software.  Both the Vista RC1 and the latest Office 2007 beta feature a number of inconsistencies from app to app, which gets especially interesting when using, for example, Word as the editor within Outlook (ribbon? no ribbon? etc.).  Paul Thurrott's latest says that one fo the things he doesn't like about Vista as it now stands is "a stupid UI":

what's up with the glaringly inconsistent UI across Windows Vista and all of its applications? Some windows have menus, some don't, and some have hidden menus. Some have these new black toolbars, some don't. And so on. Why isn't there a team of people just working on consistency issues?
Later in the article, he notes that (emphasis mine):
But the devil is in the details, as they say, and Microsoft has never been very good at consistency and that final bit of polish that separates something competent from something wonderful.
What's that?  Never been good at consistency?  But that's not what the boss thinks!

I've often described this as the "halo effect" that Microsoft gets from branding.  They're certainly doing a good job of extending the Office brand to mean all things to all people.  I wonder, though, if the 34 products in Office 2007 are starting to look like the "bucket of bolts" that has often been used by Microsoft to describe certain competitor's offerings...

Link: Paul Thurrott/WindowsITPro: The Dark Side of Windows Vista RC1 >

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Microsoft  Add/View Comments [27]

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  1. 1  Gwen Jenkins  | 9/6/2006 12:47:21 PM

    I used to be a Notes trainer for a small office, which meant I did personal tutorials rather than classes. Rarely was a person who was hired as being computer-literate (i.e., they had typed their college papers in Word) aware that there was any consistency between Windows applications. I couldn't just tell them that cut-and-paste was the same as in Word; I had to show them how to cut-and-paste, even though they knew how to do it in Word. (This is why I USED to be a trainer...)

  1. 2  Bill Geimer  | 9/6/2006 12:53:46 PM

    Interesting as the dreaded F5-F9 debate took a left turn in 7.0.1 (logout screen) and I thought was due for an about face in Hannover (or did I dream that?)

    @1 - yes, more folks pretend to be computer literate than are. The literate ones are often defined by their ability to tell what Microsoft Office application they are (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Project, Visio) just by looking at the menus at the top of the screen.

  1. 3  Mike "5 Things Wrong with SharePoint" Drips http://forevervoyaging.blogspot.com/ | 9/6/2006 1:44:50 PM

    Hey! Windows Vista offers NO COMPELLING REASON for anyone to "upgrade" to it. I have looked at every aspect of every "feature" of Vista and can only conclude that is it possibly the worst product Microsoft has ever created, and I am including Microsoft Bob and Microsoft Talking Barney in that statement.

    If Microsoft built concentration camps, apologists like Thurott would probably say "Well, everyone there gets to work outside and enjoy the fresh air!"

    Although I'm not sympathetic to people clinging onto a 17 year old technology like Notes either. My Notes gripe is when (being used to Outlook and most other mail programs) you click the X in the upper right hand corner to close the email you are viewing and instead you have just closed Notes. Dress it up in any kind of technical doll clothes you want, that is a crappy design.

    I would rather see the industry come up with a product to replace Notes/Domino/Exchange than to observe people buying and implementing Windows Vista under the mistaken assumption that it is an "upgrade".

    (Sorry about the rambling. I am short on coffee today. Sigh)

  1. 4  Peter de Haas http://www.peterdehaas.net | 9/6/2006 3:48:34 PM

    Ed,

    "I've never seen a study that validates or proves the notion that users are more productive in an all-Microsoft environment."

    Are you talking about comapritive studies between vendors or single vendor between upgrades ?

    Do these studies excist for Lotus, outside the sponsored ones at Ferris ?

    "Both the Vista RC1 and the latest Office 2007 beta feature a number of inconsistencies from app to app, which gets especially interesting when using, for example, Word as the editor within Outlook (ribbon? no ribbon? etc.)"

    Have you had a chance to look at / work with any of the Vista beta or Office 2007 beta versions and actually experienced these "inconsistencies" you are referring to ?

    With word 2007 as the mail editor in Outlook you do get the ribbon. This differs (ofcourse) from the standard ribbon in Word, as the ribbon provides functionaly in context (i.e. stuff relevant for editting / formatting / sending emails)

    And don't forget the products you are referring to are still in beta so things could change.

    @3, bad and offending joke on the concentration camps

  1. 5  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/6/2006 4:02:03 PM

    @4 Peter -

    No, I am not working in O2007 beta, but some of my colleagues are. The ribbon in Outlook was just one example -- it shows up in "edit" mode but not in other parts of the Outlook UI.

    As for what studies I mean, maybe I should make the point somewhat differently. I have never seen a study that says "users are x% more productive using Outlook than they are using Notes". I have watched usability lab tests and seen Outlook users struggle with Notes, Notes users struggle with Outlook, and both accomplish about the same number of tasks in the same amount of time.

    Given the kinds of inconsistencies Thurrott and others discuss, I'm tired of being put on defense by the assertion that it is easier to use MS products when no proof is offered. I don't think anyone has ever looked at it.

  1. 6  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 9/6/2006 4:08:43 PM

    I hadn't heard of Paul Thurrott before, so I did some digging to see what he was about. What I uncovered has left me shocked that you dared to quote him. He has flip-flopped more than a Congressman caught between two lobbyists. While has some interesting points about Vista they are overshadowed by his egregious misstatements. It's so bad I won't even bother to refute it, it's obvious to anyone who cares that he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

    To get back on track, we can debate to what degree Microsoft has been consistent in their implementations, but I don't think anyone can argue that Microsoft and most other Windows applications have followed the same UI cues. That has bred familiarity, even if it is only visual, and Notes has suffered for its lack of compliance.

    @2 - The F5 situation is getting *worse* in Hannover -- the current plan is to lock THE ENTIRE OS when a user presses F5. { Link } *sob*

    @3 - People are building alternative solutions. Check out Zimbra, OpenExchange, PostPath or Puakma. I'm not sure what replacing Domino or Exchange has to do with upgrading to Vista, though.

  1. 7  Paul Robichaux http://www.robichaux.net/blog | 9/6/2006 4:27:22 PM

    @3: this may be true for individual users, but no way for corporations! BitLocker alone is going to be a huge draw. Full-volume disk encryption, fully integrated into the OS? The paranoids in the corner office will love it.

    @5: I think Jensen Harris answered this point nicely in his blog (see, among others, { Link } for more on why MS designed Outlook 2007 the way they did.)

    @6: apples and oranges. Zimbra, OpenExchange, and PostPath all tout their "seamless" [sic] interop with... drum roll.. Outlook. Their whole value prop is that they allow you to use an alternate back end and still keep Outlook. I'm not sure they're real alternatives from the perspective of this discussion, which focuses on the client.

    In general, I think any discussion of UI consistency here should point out the Notes UI as an example of what *not* to do. My experience has been that it's mostly inconsistent with the host OS (on the Mac *and* Windows *and* Linux). I'd argue that mode switching within a single app is easier than switching context between several apps that look and behave the same and one lone holdout that doesn't. See e.g. { Link } for more on why I think this.

  1. 8  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 9/6/2006 4:30:21 PM

    @5 - I really think with Vista and Office 2007 you're going to see a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Nearly all similarities with prior versions are gone and I expect users to reject it in droves. Mine sure did.

  1. 9  Peter de Haas http://www.peterdehaas.net | 9/6/2006 4:36:58 PM

    @5

    You have a point on the research. I haven't come across it either.

    There has been quite some research done on the what has led to the Office Outlook 2003 UI witn stuff like the vertical preview pane, etc. I will digg into that and come up with some proofpoints on that ;-)

    What I do see is that the evolution of the Notes UI mimicks Outlook 2003 to a large extend ...

    You're right about the proofpoint .. don't you just hate that :-)

  1. 10  David Bell  | 9/6/2006 7:03:42 PM

    @3 - "My Notes gripe is when (being used to Outlook and most other mail programs) you click the X in the upper right hand corner to close the email you are viewing and instead you have just closed Notes. Dress it up in any kind of technical doll clothes you want, that is a crappy design."

    I'm not sure I get why this is such a big deal - maybe I've been using Notes too long.

    The X in the upper right is far away from the X on the tab relating to the document you opened.

    Now, if you open the document in a new window (which I believe is what Outlook does with emails), clicking the upper right hand X only closes the new window, not the application - which is the same behaviour. The difference being that Notes does not open a new window for each document by default.

    Doesn't the upper right X close Outlook when you click on it ?

    You can now set Notes to prompt you when you do this.

  1. 11  Lee Davis  | 9/6/2006 7:36:46 PM

    I agree that Vista has a lot of faults and that the consistency is one of the significantion ones. And I think that Notes/Domino is a good and superior to M$ product.

    But the lack of consistency in the M$ offerings does not mean the IBM products are more consistent. I.e., I do not think that one can credibly make the argument that a non-technical user who spend most of their computer day in Windows/Office/IE will find a current or future version of Notes "more compatible/intuitive" than the M$. This is exacerbated by the fact that some of Notes' great features ( pki/id files and synchronization nee replication ) are outside the typical user's experience.

    Regarding "proof:" if the vast majority of your sales prospects believe something then whether it a "true" or whether peer-reviewed academics would say it is true is pretty irrelevant. Unless IBM were willing to spend a lot of advertising and PR on reeducation and I am sure they are not because, unlike security, scalability and performance, M$ is ahead and controls the battlefield i.e. M$ decides what a Windows/Office compatible UI looks like. ( And if users really, really care about UI quality and consistency, they are using a Mac. )

    Besides, for over a decade Office has had configurable menus while Lotus/IBM has explanations of why PF5 still logs you off. M$ spends a lot more effort on user feedback; it doesn't result in a great UI ( e.g. personalized Menus, clippy, BOB ) but does eventually get to a reasonably popular consensus in a least-common-denominator sort of way.

    IMHO, the fact that M$ will launch and incompatible UI with an unwanted ribbon and yet generate many billions of dollars of profit from that is an argument for life being unfair and it being dificult to compete with an integrated monopoly but I do not see how it is a significant competitive advantage for IBM.

  1. 12  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/6/2006 8:02:22 PM

    @11 "the fact that M$ will launch and incompatible UI with an unwanted ribbon and yet generate many billions of dollars of profit from that is an argument for life being unfair and it being dificult to compete with an integrated monopoly but I do not see how it is a significant competitive advantage for IBM."

    it probably isn't, but it will make a great chapter in my book. someday.

  1. 13  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/6/2006 9:59:06 PM

    @4 Peter picked this up for his own blog...where he's precisely made the point (IMHO) that Thurrott made. Check it out at { Link }

  1. 14  Bill Geimer  | 9/6/2006 10:32:50 PM

    @2 (Yes, me) Is there a Notes person out there for whom the key strokes Ctrl-A Del F9 aren't totally ingrained for deleting 75,000 records or 15 or whatever is in there you don't want.

  1. 15  Rick Sizemore  | 9/7/2006 6:25:32 AM

    #10

    I like my little X's, leave them alone, they haven't hurt anybody. If you look at how the industry (including MS in IE7) are implementing tabbed browsing, its pretty close to what Notes has been doing for 6 or 7 years. Firefox was the first browser (yes there was Opera and a few others with 7 users), Excel has had a psuedo tabbed UI for years, although its navigation is on the bottom. I'd much rather have a tabbed UI for Office apps, please powerpoint, so I don't have tons of stacked (or 4 pixel wide)application tabs on the windows taskbar.

    Some if this may be mitigated with more screen realestate on widescreen monitors, there just isn't enough room.

  1. 16  Keith Brooks http://www.kbmsg.blogspot.com/ | 9/7/2006 8:57:28 AM

    The ribbon is very annoying but helpful at the same time.

    Relearning a UI is never easy. And I feel bad for the PC Support guys (I was one back in the late 80's, early 90's), because they finally got everyone able to print and now they took their menu away :-)

  1. 17  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 9/7/2006 9:28:38 AM

    @7 - I respectfully disagree regarding Zimbra's value proposition being to allow people to retain Outlook. Their value is in allowing people to free themselves of the shackles of an e-mail client by offering the slickest webmail UI out there. They offer Outlook integration or the freaks who want it, but that is not their core value proposition. Besides, that comment about alternative e-mail servers was directed at an earlier comment that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. Much like this one. :)

    @3/10 - In Office applications clicking the X will only close that instance of the application. This is not a consistent implementation of a MDI interface, but most users were hopelessly confused by a traditional MDI implementation and something had to be done. IBM solved it by introducing window tabs to Notes in R5, which still retains the MDI paradigm without the confusing "Window" menu. Microsoft solved it by letting each MDI child appear to be a separate instance, effectively breaking the UI standard and introducing inconsistency. I think this might be one of those situations Lee describes @11. Microsoft owns Windows, they own Office, and they are the de facto creator of all Windows UI standards even if those standards are broken, incompatible and inconsistent.

    @16 - I'm one of those "do everything" IT guys, including end user support. Thankfully my users have already rejected the Ribbon so I won't have to support that travesty of UI design. The only consistent thing about it is that all Office 2007 apps have a Ribbon. It's configured differently for every stinking one of them. The menu bars are hidden by default and finding them is difficult, so no more telling users "click Insert and select Picture".

  1. 18  stephen hood  | 9/7/2006 9:48:26 AM

    @7 Maybe you should know something about your *own* products before you speak about what to do and what not to do in regards to consistency. That might give some credibility to what you say. For the readers benefit here is an example of what he is talking about when he talks about MS consistency and ease of use.

    Outlook Today

    - find dialog.

    Outlook Calendar, Contacts, Tasks, Notes, etc

    - forwards a new message but doesn't let me find anything like other MS applications and the host windows OS. What was your point again?

    Outlook Other Shortcuts (Favorites, My documents)

    - does nothing

    Word, Excel, Powerpoint

    - find dialog with different layouts and behaviours for the same functions. Missing behaviours, seperate dialogs vs integrated dialogs etc. IOW a mess.

    Windows Explorer

    - *toggles* a left hand pane between a *search* and task pane that has multiple questions - coming from a dog? Where's the dog in Office when I press Ctrl-F?

    Why does the host OS use different terminology (search) for the *same keystroke* that other MS applications use for find?

    Is there a difference between search and find? If there is then why use the same keystroke? If there isn't why aren't they both named the same.

    Given MS wrote the OS and apps shouldn't there be some consistency. Weren't you calling IBM to task for this and they don't have control over it - you do. What's your excuse? At the very least they have one.

    That was your point right?

    Ok, so maye I'm being a bit harsh..maybe this is an exception. How about another popular key like the contentious F5 used to point out Notes not being consistent with the OS. What about MS office applications...

    In Powerpoint it runs a presentation.

    In Word it pops the find dialog with focus on the goto tab.

    In Excel it pops a *seperate* Goto dialog.

    What was that about consistency with the OS? It's not even consistent within your Office "suite" - never mind with the OS. What were you saying again?

    Compare the mish mash of *in*consistency above to Notes.

    Ctrl-F is same find dialog in Notes. Across Client, Designer, Admin and ALL Notes applications.

    The dialog hides buttons if they can never apply in a given situation and greys them if the user can enter into a mode where they could be applied..the greying providing a useful visual cue for the user. The way good UI design should behave.

    F5 - locks Notes. Again across Client, Designer, Admin and ALL Notes applications

    But hey it's not like Ctrl-F and F5 aren't frequently used functionality now is it.

    Thanks for proving Ed's point about it being a myth not being backed up by facts. That was nice of you. I guess when the people representing MS don't even know their own products that's the kind of mess you end up with.

    In general, I think any discussion of UI consistency here should point out the MS UI as an example of what *not* to do. My experience has been that it's inconsistent with the host OS (only Windows) and other MS applications.

    I'd argue that mode switching within a single app is easier than switching context between several apps that don't look and behave the same and don't provide a consistent security model..

    Ah security.. maybe we should compare the new Vista UAC and Notes ECL for a *consistent* *user* *experience* your on about? Surely after spending 5-6 years and billions of dollars improving the user experience and security you can come up with something better than Notes. Can't you? I mean this is brand new state of the art stuff right? Nope. Screwed that up as well.

    It's not even a contest...is it?

    What were you saying about consistency again?

  1. 19  stephen hood  | 9/7/2006 9:51:24 AM

    @18. First part is talking about Ctrl-F "consistency"

  1. 20  Paul Robichaux http://www.robichaux.net/blog | 9/7/2006 10:01:22 AM

    @18: thanks for sharing, Stephen. Unfortunately, since I don't work for Microsoft, you're barking at the wrong commenter.

  1. 21  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net/ | 9/7/2006 10:13:56 AM

    I don't think it is good for us to "bash" one company or another. Both Lotus and MS have examples of good development in their products, as well as bad. The one thing almost everyone seems to agree on in these types of threads, is that facts should be used versus conjecture. So, while I don't often blog "competitively", today I decided to discuss some of my thoughts on this topic, and on my experiences with Outlook 2007.

    { Link }

  1. 22  Dave Madison  | 9/8/2006 1:14:42 AM

    And yet at the end of the day when I look at screenshots of Hannover put side by side against Outlook, they look amazingly similar, and Hannover seems to be implementing features that OL has had since 1997. I wonder why that is?

  1. 23  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/8/2006 8:25:45 AM

    @22 I don't think I've seen the part of the "Hannover" UI that has four different types of arrows within 20 pixels of each other. <grin>

    Implementing features that Outlook has had since '97? Sure, some. You do the same the other way, finally giving calendar users the ability to counter-propose a meeting in Outlook 2003 (that was in Lotus Organizer 1.1, in 1993, for reference). But there's innovation, too. It all moves forward.

  1. 24  stephen hood  | 9/8/2006 8:56:51 AM

    @20

    It would be more accurate to say your not an employee.

  1. 25  Dave Madison  | 9/8/2006 2:18:38 PM

    @22. "I do the same?" Sorry, I'm not an Outlook designer, nor do I work for nor am an employee for Microsoft (apparently there seems to be a distinction with some). Just a user of Outlook that has seen screenshots of Hannover and the feature list and find them amazingly similar in look and feel. Just curious why the Hannover designers decided to go down that path and not stick with the long time Notes client UI. Since, well, Hannover IS Notes.

  1. 26  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/8/2006 2:31:58 PM

    @25 I made an assumption...the last time a "Dave Madison" commented on this blog, it was a Microsoft employee (and someone I've met at Lotusphere a few times). I thought you might be one and the same.

    Hannover IS Notes. But Notes is evolving, and not for the first time. This is a good thing.

  1. 27  Dave Madison  | 9/9/2006 5:14:13 PM

    @25 No worries. I'm currently getting mail being asked to submit my name to the alumni roles of a high school I never attennded.