Ed Brill

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1. 1  David Mercer  | 10/20/2005 2:54:12 PM

   My favorite thing about Notes always was the M of N encryption, which I don't think I've seen in other commercial (or open source!) products before, merely in the crypto literature.

   Have Exchange or Oracle added it? I know that part of how we sold very pro-MS management on using Notes for a document management db system that no single point of failure in the face of admin malice or misshap (accident, illness, etc.) could lock out or delete the root certs. Translated down to PHB speak, with the alternative for EVERY other system out there, and they were reaching for the checkbook.

   It was the piece de resistance at the end of a finely honed upper-management friendly comparison whiteboard.

   Speaking of which, I need to go and dig up papers on M of N key encryption. I wonder if there's a redbook for that online somewhere, or at least mathematically in depth whitepapers. Hm, anybody know of any such citations please email me at the address I posted here with the word "Notes" in the subject line somewhere, thanx!

1. 2  David Mercer  | 10/20/2005 2:55:26 PM

   My coda to my comment above is that not only MS can deploy FUD to their advantage!

1. 3  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 10/20/2005 4:12:56 PM

   Microsoft has M-of-N capability in their certificate server, which is orthogonal to Exchange. You can use it, or any other third-party CA, to issue certs to Exchange users.

1. 4  David Mercer  | 10/20/2005 5:51:26 PM

   Shows how long it's been since I swam in those Enterprise Messaging waters, I guess!

1. 5  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 10/20/2005 6:02:54 PM

   The difference is that with Domino (and by association Notes) the PKI is fully integrated and deployed by default with little extra effort. My perception of Exchange is that the PKI is not so easily integrated, requires additional software, hardware, admin and effort. This is reflected in the number of Exchange customers I've spoken to who haven't implemented a PKI.

1. 6  Nathan T. Freeman  | 10/21/2005 4:08:20 AM

   "deployed by default with little extra effort"

   I think that would be more accurately stated as NO extra effort. In fact, it's extra effort NOT to.

   Oh, and I'm pretty sure the standard language is "K of N", not "M of N," which might be why you're having trouble finding resources about it.

1. 7  Mikkel Heisterberg  | 10/21/2005 6:39:46 AM

   Warning - I'm having a bad day and the quote in the post really did it so take the below with a grain of salt...

   I think the quote from the post touches on a very important point - it doesn't matter if Domino is the better platform technology-wise etc. when Microsoft has the mindshare of management ultimately making the decision. In my opinion, observing the struggle between Domino and Exchange as a Danish Domino consultant, Microsoft is leading the battle over IBM because:

   * Microsoft is better at marketing Exchange than IBM is of marketing Domino. A lot of people think Notes is dying and is being phased out.

   * Users know and trust Microsoft to provide state-of-the-art software that looks nice and works well together. I contrast this to the time I spend trying to explain to customers why they need to log into Sametime separately when just logged into Notes (because they need to use their HTTP password for Sametime). I spend a lot of time convincing customers that the Sametime is a good product even though the Sametime Connect clients looks like it does and the administration part looks like something you don't believe to be true.

   * Microsoft are WAY better at getting ISV's to provide out-of-the-box solutions for Outlook and Exchange. A simple example is phone synchronization software but a more serious one is mail/calendar integration with third-party business applications (CRM products etc.)

   In my opinion IBM has to do a better job getting the mindshare of management and become a more visible player in the software field as a whole. We all know Domino is the better product technology-wise but it isn't always the better product that wins. Sometimes the product also has to look nice, be contemporary, slick and be appealing to users.

   I know I'm ranting but it is very fustrating to see Microsoft win more and more customers from Domino to Exchange simply because they are running other applications can't play nice with Notes. Sometimes it is because the customer is not willing to pay for having the integration done when the integration is free when running Outlook.

   Am I the only one feeling this way and experiencing this kind of feedback from existing and potential customers?

1. 8  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 10/21/2005 7:01:16 AM

   @6 - you're right Nathan, perhaps I was trying to be a little too balanced.

1. 9  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 10/21/2005 7:28:49 AM

   @7 -

   some good and valid points but not all, I believe.

   1) MS is better at marketing Exchange. Could you support that in some way? IBM is holding 200 launch events for ND7 that will reach something like 12,000 people over a 90 day period. Over 400 attended the Belgian launch, an -evening- event! Advertising - Full page ads in the Wall Street Journal (yes, I realize this is US). When is the last time you saw an ad for Exchange? All major industry analysts have endorsed ND7. So what is MS doing to out-market?

   2) Yes, I understand there are sometimes UI challenges and inconsistencies. These are getting better. "Hannover" will unify the experience with a client-side portal-like environment, pretty much what you seem to be seeking.

   3) ISV support -- I think it depends. Siebel announced support for Notes on the day Oracle acquired them. Blackberry's BES is more scaleable and in 4.1, more feature-rich than its Exchange counterpart.

   So I don't have my head in the sand on all of this, as I continue to hear such feedback. My peers and management do as well. The ND7 launch should be indicative, with a multi-million US$ budget, of how serious IBM is about marketing Notes/Domino. Hopefully that is reaching Danish customers as well.

1. 10  Alex Wilson  | 10/21/2005 7:48:34 AM

   ???When is the last time you saw an ad for Exchange???

   I think that is the point. No ads and they still manage to sell a large number of licenses. They also manage to score some good wins from time to time. I don't think it is about the number of ads. I think it is about how clear they are and the message they convey.

   Exchange is CONSIDERED to be easy to set up, manage and maintain. It is CONSIDERED to be reliable and does the job people buy it for. Notice the emphasis on the word "considered". It does not have to be truthful, but it is what many people hear or think. You don't have to have a good product at all... just be able to convince people that it is good.

   You lie long enough and people believe the lies. I am and always will be a firm believer in Notes/Domino. I will continue to preach the gospel.

   The problem is that Microsoft gives away the product to hook you (Office, Outlook, Sharepoint). You get nothing free from IBM when you buy a new computer.

1. 11  Martin Leyrer  | 10/21/2005 8:22:46 AM

   @9/1) And how many of these "reached" IBM 12,000 people are NOT existing Notes/Domino customers? IMHO not many.

   And that is the problem I see - at least in Europe. There is almost zero activity to acquire new customers (either for Notes or Workplace).

   To me, these events look more like a UserGroup or "family" meeting than a marketing event to gain new customers.

1. 12  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/21/2005 8:40:51 AM

   @10 - Ummm, Microsoft doesn't give anything away. When you get a new computer with Office on it, you're paying for that in the price of the computer. Outlook Express may be "free", but that's the extend of it.

   @7 - "why they need to log into Sametime separately when just logged into Notes"

   There are two solutions for this (if you are using integrated IM with Notes) - (1) Use the Notes option to sign into IM with SSO or (2) Use the checkbox to save your password.

   Also, the administrator can enforce a policy to make the passwords match when the Notes password is changed. So, there are some ways around this "problem."

1. 13  Simon Barratt http://apps.fmc.com/blog.nsf | 10/21/2005 8:50:28 AM

   Senior IT Management are convinced that IBM will force us into painful technology shifts staying with Domino.

   They also perceive little activity between IBM and SAP. The Mendocino announcement from SAP and Microsoft, have further reinforced that we would be better off moving to MS, to simplify and extend SAP usage in the company.

   I agree with @7 about the wireless device support. You know MS have decided they want to own this area. Adding native support in Exchange 2003 SP2 and very public partnerships with Palm, Symbian and Nokia reinforce this.

   It seems to me there are a few very hot buttons in the chemical industry around these products. Once you have those nailed, other merits of the product are overlooked.

   Those buttons are:

   Single Sign On with AD

   - In more and more places AD is a given. A product that tightly integrate with it is viewed more favourably.

   SAP Integration

   - SAP is huge in the chemical industry. Anything to make it more useable, thus better ROI, is enthusiastically welcomed.

   Mobile Device support

   - A mobile device is just another client type. Why should I pay extra to access information that I have already purchased a CAL for?

   3rd Party application support

   - Outlook addins dominate the conversations we have with 3rd parties offering email integration for archiving, document management even freebie Internet tools!

   UI

   - The UI has to look good. There is far to much competition on the desktop for your eyes to ignore this. Humans, by nature, are drawn to good looking things.

   I believe, if IBM can address these points, and ensure that they then market these attributes, they can compete in the areas that seem to crop up most in conversations. We all understand the important infrastructure benefits, but that is of little concern at the top!

   Speaking from experience here!

1. 14  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 10/21/2005 9:37:35 AM

   @10 - I agree with Chris (@12). Okay, Microsoft appear to give away some stuff for free, but everyone must be paying for something - they're one of the most cash-rich organisations on Earth.

1. 15  Mikkel Heisterberg http://blog.lekkim.heisterberg.dk | 10/21/2005 10:00:08 AM

   @9 - It is all well and good with Hannover and I'm looking forward to it but it will be a long time coming. Remember that Hannover was announced before Notes 7 was released meaning that there will be 2 "major" releases of the Notes client before it will be out (first we have Notes 7, 7.5 and the Hannover).

   @11 - Right on with the comment about the majority of people coming to Notes 7 release parties probably are existing Notes customers and Notes believers and die-hards like us discussing here.

   @12 - I know about the SSO options and I use them myself. Just so we are clear though - even though I can save my password I still have to update the HTTP password for Samrtime when I change my Notes password (because we have HTTP password synchronization enabled for use with iNotes).

   The reason I put that one in there specifically was that the first comments to the post were discussing PKI and because it goes to show how the integration between IBM products could be better.

   When I log into Notes I unlock my private key and hence have access to the PKI of Domino. What more does Sametime need? I can sign a message with my canonical name using my private key which guarantees that I am who I say I am (with the normal cryptology exceptions of other people having access to my key pair and password). Sametime is running on a Domino server as well so it should have access to my public key to verify the message I send.

   Off cause there are technological challenges and situations where the HTTP password option is needed and practical but for the majority of Notes users only using the Notes client and Sametime for awareness this is all they need. No more worrying about HTTP passwords etc.

1. 16  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/21/2005 10:01:21 AM

   @13 - UI? I believe IBM is going to take the world by storm with Hannover. But I have never liked looking at Outlook anyway. It's just another bland Windows app and it appears to not be getting the same facelift as the other Office 12 applications. Remember, UI is all in the eye of the beholder...

   SSO with AD - The Notes client has an option to sign in with the OS password. If your password for notes ID is the same as AD, then this will work.

   Mobile support - There is support for all device types. Sure you may have to buy a license for it, but it's possible. You haven't purchased a CAL that gives you the right to use device synchronization for free (with MS or Notes). Getting back to the "free" mindset of @10, if mobile support is bundled with the software, you're STILL paying for it.

   3rd Party App Support - Write your own or go to OpenNTF.org. =)

1. 17  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/21/2005 10:04:02 AM

   @15 - If the Sametime directory is replicating with your Mail directory, then when you change your Notes password and, in turn, your HTTP password is changed, then your Sametime password will eventually change (depending on the replication schedule).

1. 18  Simon Barratt http://apps.fmc.com/blog.nsf | 10/21/2005 10:05:45 AM

   @16, I understand your points, but your answers confirm that my points are not as well catered for as they could be. In my case, a better answer in these areas would of made a big difference.

1. 19  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 10/21/2005 10:11:28 AM

   @15 - Twelve THOUSAND is a lot of people to be labelled as "die-hards"! I have found prospects in those audiences. Part of the reason I'm in Pittsburgh today is to talk to new customers. There is a lot of focus on net-new, and IBM has publicly announced 500 competitive wins from Exchange/Groupwise in 1H2005.

   Also, Hannover is the NEXT version of Notes. Whether it is called 7.5 or 8 or whatever, it is NOT two releases out.

1. 20  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/21/2005 10:49:34 AM

   @19 - good to hear that Hannover is the rNext...

   @18 - Everybody wants something for nothing right? =)

1. 21  Eric  | 10/21/2005 2:27:37 PM

   @13 has a very good point. Sure, there's ADSync ... and the client can use the Windows password to attempt authentication ... but it's still not integration.

   How many customers actually use ADSync? And how do they integrate existing AD and Domino Directories? Client/web/AD passwords? An enterprise with hub-and-spoke servers can't use ADSync for one organization and not the others since it wants to use the Administration server.

   This is a *very* good point, and I'm being pushed more in the direction of migrating to Exchange for that reason alone. I don't like it one bit ... but so far we can't find a way for Microsoft and Lotus to play nicely when it comes to AD/Domino synchronization. Even the 3rd-party utilities have limitations ... and why pay for a 3rd party utility if we can integrate Exchange?

1. 22  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/21/2005 4:09:57 PM

   @21 - While you have a valid point of the integration not being there, I believe you need to reconsider the question. You must have some reason for considering Domino over Exchange - as you said, the AD integration is going to probably be what causes Exchange to win. So, what's the premise for wanting to have this? To not have users have to change another password? The OS SSO option in Notes will prompt you to change your AD/Windows password the next time you start Notes to keep them synchronized. Using it this way, you can keep things fairly synchronized.

   I find it a little silly to have AD integration be such a vital factor. How many products has MS killed in the past? Who's to say that AD will be around for the next couple of releases. Instead of focusing on password synchronization, focus on the real business uses. I know that there are other factors with the synchronization (such as keeping employee information synchronized between directories), so I'm not discounting that. It's just that everyone is more focused on passwords being synchronized.

1. 23  Eric  | 10/22/2005 10:29:15 AM

   @22 - I'm the Domino admin., our organization uses AD extensively, and it's not going to go away unless/until MS rips & replaces. AND ... I agree with you, and am not happy with our upstream's decisions to try to integrate them so tightly simply for password synchronization.

   However, those are the cards I'm dealt right now, and we are having a tough time making it work. Both respective internal teams are surprised that the other (Lotus vs. Microsoft) vendor hasn't come up with something by now, as both feel they are more important.

   I love Lotus; but I'm at the point with this particular project that I just want to find an answer that works. Both camps have good points - an enterprise "distributed directory service" and an enterprise collaboration solution of these magnitudes should hopefully find ways to work together ... and since MS wants us to use their own email platform ...

   I'm caught up in the middle, but still trying to keep the faith. ;)

1. 24  David Bell  | 10/22/2005 11:35:52 PM

   @13 - "Senior IT Management are convinced that IBM will force us into painful technology shifts staying with Domino."

   You mean to say that they believe MS enforced technology shifts are less painful than IBM. You have to be joking.

   Notes/Domino has to have one of the best backwards compatibility story of any software ever released.

   MS just do not give a damn about it. They arrogantly believe that where they go their customers will follow, no matter how painful.

1. 25  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 10/23/2005 4:58:42 PM

   @23 - Stay strong Eric!! =)

1. 26  Jeffrey Cheng  | 10/25/2005 1:33:48 PM

   Can anybody tell me that where is the opion of enabling the Notes client to do the SSO with MS Active Directory?

1. 27  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 10/25/2005 2:24:28 PM

   @26, You can configure your Notes client to have SSO with Windows Logon. To do this you must have selected the custom feature "Client Single Logon" when you installed Notes. Here is a link to the Help File document: { Link }

1. 28  VMguru007 http://www.itcomparison.com | 1/27/2008 2:32:06 AM

   Hi,

   A great comparison between Lotus 8 & Exchange 2007 can be found at { Link }

   It definitely show the pros & cons of each. I think it will be of most people interest on this board.

   Enjoy,

   VMguru007