Recall mail: On by default?

June 25 2007

A question came in from a customer about the Notes 8 "mail recall" feature.  This feature is the one I often refer to in presentations as the "over my dead body" feature, because I maintained for a long time that we wouldn't implement it, that it was the wrong thing for an era where people "live in e-mail" (either in their desktop clients or blackberries etc.).  Well, the request kept coming and the product managers and development architects did their job, so they went and implemented it anyway, figuring that customers who don't want it will just turn it off.

The question that was raised was, shouldn't the recall feature be off by default, requiring the administrator to actively turn it on if they want it in their environment?  So far, the internal consensus is "no", it should not be off by default, it should be on by default.  

This is an exception to the past -- normally, we turn new features off by default, as part of the general commitment to customer-controlled upgrades we've had for many years.  In Notes 8, though, there are so many new features, it would be challenging for an administrator to have to make individual decisions on turning each of them on.  Further, when Samantha first checks out Notes 8, we want her to see it "all dolled up" -- so that she sees that IBM really has been listening to her.

In the case of mail recall, a customer has asked us to turn that off by default.  We think that's not necessary...there are two ways to turn it off administratively (by policy and server configuration).  But since we're all about listening to customers on this feature in the first place, now we're asking.  Mary Beth Raven has blogged this as well...perhaps because we've both been invited to a meeting on this topic tomorrow (Tuesday) afternoon.

As she says, this is one of those times we have to make a superfast decision...like now!  So, let either one of us know...

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Notes and Domino 8  Add/View Comments [67]

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  1. 1  Alex  | 6/25/2007 7:18:56 PM

    IMO it should be off by default. This is a major change. Depending on the organization there may be legal considerations to take into account, before enabling it.

    Minor UI/interface changes can turned by default, that isn't such a big deal. A major change like this, in the way the system operates should be left up to people implementing the upgrade.

    In terms the administrator being overwhelmed by options, before I even proceed with anything I read the documentation. I think most adminstrators will read and try to at least familiarize themselves with the new options before pressing forward.

  1. 2  Nathan Chandler  | 6/25/2007 7:27:25 PM

    Any sufficiently mature notes shop when upgrading to ND8 (or any version for that matter) will decide in advance what new features to implement in production. However if they choose not to implement the feature, then to require them to actively go and disable it on every server document or policy document seems a little risky.

    Message recall can have compliance implications too. It might be safer for most organisations to make an informed decision about whether and how how they will adopt the feature rather than to have it turned on for them.

    It's also worth mentioning that the old criticism of Windows security used to be that all of the un-necessary services were turned on and un-configured by default which left the system open to exploit. You wouldn't want ND8 to be accused of the same, right?

  1. 3  Ed Maloney  | 6/25/2007 7:34:45 PM

    This is one of those can't win situations. If a customer wants the feature they can't understand why it wouldn't be the default. If they don't want it then it shouldn't be the default. I would think that for backward compatibility (minimal disruption), it should be off by default.

  1. 4  Mike Lazar  | 6/25/2007 8:03:41 PM

    I would say off by default. Mainly because I am personally opposed to it, but also because of this...What is the behavior today? It is unavailable, hence, "off". I don't want to have to modify what is really the current behavior because IBM turns it "on" in a new release.

  1. 5  Rich DiTaranti  | 6/25/2007 8:21:43 PM

    It should be turned on by default. Notes users have to make things easier to win over the outlook/exchange people who get converted to notes. Mail re-call will not always work, but having used outlook/exchange in the past and then having used notes now for 3+ years, it was one of those things that you miss right at the beginning of using notes. I still send some emails that I want to re-call after I realize, I didn't finish something I wanted to. Then I have to send those "ignore my previous email, read this one" messages. For those of you against it, I guess the argument is that when you mail a letter, you can't reach in the mailbox and get it back...but I believe we all think email is better than snail mail in many ways. There are lots of things that administrators can control and some that the users wish they had control over that only the administrator can control. MS went to the ribbon, because there are so many features of their software that people weren't utilizing because they didn't know they were there. I don't think you will find them hiding things people will want. If things are that important to the administrator, let them turn it off instead.

  1. 6  Henning Heinz  | 6/25/2007 8:25:11 PM

    I have no problem enabling this feature but if others have maybe it is better to ask during setup / upgrade like "Do you want to enable the new mail recall feature for this server (you can also enable it later after the install/upgrade has been completed)?".

  1. 7  Nathan Chandler  | 6/25/2007 8:30:58 PM

    @6 I think the real issue is with existing servers/environments rather than newly configured servers.

  1. 8  Bryan Kuhn http://btkuhn.blogspot.com | 6/25/2007 10:07:20 PM

    I am not opposed to this feature being on by default, unless having it one will pose some type of performance issue which does not appear to be the case. In terms of turning it off, how difficult would it be to disable the feature in the server docs?

  1. 9  Richard  | 6/25/2007 10:13:07 PM

    I seem to remember the old IBM MEMO system had this very feature AGES ago. What's the big issue now?

  1. 10  JYR  | 6/25/2007 10:55:21 PM

    Hi, it should be off by default. As a consultant, i've seen many different companies (From 15 to 95 000 employees). I don't think that they are all 'mature' enough to use this feature.

    JYR

  1. 11  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 6/25/2007 11:58:51 PM

    I don't see a compliance issue here. By the time a user can recall a message, it has already been safely journaled. And the recall notice itself is, presumably, also journaled... so there should be a complete record of the message and the recall.

    My recommendation: don't change course. If you've been telling people that the feature is going to be on by default, leave it on. There are still a few people left who don't read this blog, and (I know this may come as a shock to you... not!) there are also some people who don't read release notes. Don't cross these people up by changing your mind on this.

    I do have a question, though. Does the fact that this issue exist signify that it is viewed by some as too difficult to enable or disable the feature? If that's the case, that's what really needs to be fixed.

  1. 12  Stuart McIntyre http://quickrblog.com | 6/26/2007 12:43:06 AM

    'Further, when Samantha first checks out Notes 8, we want her to see it "all dolled up"'

    Oh no, another use of the term "dolled-up" on Ed's blog - what is the world coming to! We'll have "sexed-up" next...

    As for mail recall - on by default IMHO. All new features that do not compromise performance or availability should be on by default, with well-written, clear and prominent guidance on how to turn them off if desired.

  1. 13  Jeff Picco  | 6/26/2007 1:52:30 AM

    Off by default.

    With how connected our mail system is to the archives (where the message goes before it even hits your mail file and you can't delete from it anyway) and mobile devices there is no way this feature will work for us. The eDiscovery and legal issues surrounding the industry I'm in, there is no way.

    So, it would actually create more work for us to turn it off during the upgrade process. I understand if you don't need all of the compliance controls that we do, I think it would be great. I've done the 'oops, did I really just send that' before.

    So, my vote is to have it off by default. Only MS makes the config changes for us because they know better, not IBM :-) Can I launch attachments today from Outlook or do I need to save them to my local drive first... depends upon which patch just came out, I guess. nice.

  1. 14  Phil West http://www.nrgi.com | 6/26/2007 2:16:23 AM

    Off by default.

    In a mixed environment (7 & 8 for example) what would happen? someone tries to recall a message and it doesn't recall. People think it's broken. Bad press ensues.

    Let us roll it out when we're ready.

  1. 15  LongLiveLotus  | 6/26/2007 3:13:54 AM

    Off by default -

    there are training/legal/cultural/allsorts/... of reasons that a good number of companies wont be ready which will be different worldwide. It should be their informed decision to switch it on. Playing dvil's advocate, imagine the comeback on IBM if some country has legal reasons that this cant be used.

    Whilst I see it as a good feature it is hardly groundbreaking nor a flagship feature of the product, the jazzy (sorry!!) UI will hardly be spoilt for the sake of a greyed out unsend option.

    Much ado about nothing, IME noone ever uses it anyway, typically only used when users forget to add an attachment to a message and only then if they know its there and they know how to use it.

    Will it work for external email where the addressee also uses Notes? If so this has additional ramifications.

    As a related aside, one of the executive and pervasive reasons given for my co moving off Notes as cal/mail platform was that it did not have the recall feature of a competitor product.

  1. 16  Philip Storry http://www.not-so-rapid.com | 6/26/2007 3:15:11 AM

    Off by default.

    In an ideal world, the setting would be:

    New install = On by default

    Old install/upgrade = Off by default

    If you can't get it turned off by default for upgrading installations, then it should be off by default anyway.

    I understand the desire to show off new features - but this one's got legal implications. Therefore it should be off by default to prevent any accidents.

    Phil West @14 also makes an excellent point about mixed installations - on by default makes a poor choice there.

  1. 17  Matthias Michl http://www.seaquistclosures.com | 6/26/2007 3:28:31 AM

    I would follow also the suggestion from Henning (@6). Ask for it during setup! I would see legal complications with company policies and with law when turned on by default and not configured by an admin.

  1. 18  Martijn Mulder  | 6/26/2007 3:46:07 AM

    IMHO all new features should be turned off by default. To go one step further: the server should not display different behaviour from the previous release when installed with all the defaults.

    This simplifies the upgrade process a lot.

    I remember spending a lot of time figuring out which server settings had been added and were affecting the behaviour upgrading from R5 to R6.5. E.g. "Use UTF-8 for HTML forms" and the "maximum request/post size" going from MB to bytes, from the top of my head.

  1. 19  Mike Brown  | 6/26/2007 4:37:28 AM

    Off by default for me.

    Cheers,

    - Mike

  1. 20  Peter Smith  | 6/26/2007 4:58:12 AM

    I'd have it ON by default. R8 is the release that we all hope will prove to be an Outlook/Exchange killer, in that we can counter all the complaints we've heard for years about what Outlook can do and Notes can't.

    By having it ON by default Admins will be forced to address the issue immediately and get a decision if it should stay or be diabled. If we have it left off it becomes another feature that never gets implemented, and when the company goes Exchange because of user dissatisfaction it's too late to say "oh we could have had that all along". Much like the R6 enviroments with R5 mail templates that never get upgraded (Grrr..).

    This feature will (to my mind) be one of the top 5 client functionality changes in Admins minds, and I don't believe large and multi version environments will "forget" it is enabled by default. Remember - we're only talking about a default value, it's not a commitment to run it.

  1. 21  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 5:56:18 AM

    What are the implications in a mixed environment? It seems to me that this is the only question that matters. If you turn it on by default, and it only works on Domino 8 servers, then, by default, you break services in my whole domain as of the first Domino 8 installation until the last Domino 8 installation.

    How very Microsoft of you.

  1. 22  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 6:35:22 AM

    Manual Trackback

    { Link }

  1. 23  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 6/26/2007 6:51:02 AM

    @22 "Break services in my whole domain"? Not really, because message Recall doesn't actually offer any guarantee that a message will be recalled before people read it.

    As for the "legal issues" people keep talking about, can anyone point to something specific? The Exchange installed base lives in the same compliance environment as the Domino base does. They have had message recall for years, and (as far as I know) it is enabled by default and can't be disabled.

  1. 24  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 7:19:28 AM

    @23 - If Samantha clicks on "recall" and the message isn't actually recalled, she's going to think it's broken. If it's broken on her brand new mail client, then to her, Notes sucks.

    Have we not been dealing with this issue for over a decade now?

    The Recall interface isn't smart enough to know whether it's enabled at the server. It isn't smart enough to know that the message was sent outside the domain. It isn't smart enough to consider who on a recipient list can be recalled and who can't.

    A recall request sent to gmail generates a DSN, for pete's sake!

  1. 25  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/26/2007 7:21:01 AM

    Interesting to put two comments together.

    From 15:

    "one of the executive and pervasive reasons given for my co moving off Notes as cal/mail platform was that it did not have the recall feature of a competitor product."

    and from 20:

    "If we have it left off it becomes another feature that never gets implemented, and when the company goes Exchange because of user dissatisfaction it's too late to say "oh we could have had that all along". Much like the R6 enviroments with R5 mail templates that never get upgraded (Grrr..)."

    This is, unfortunately, all too common. Now I know and understand that the expectations are different for IBM than for MS, but there is definitely something to be said for putting key features out there.

    Doesn't matter that this feature has been in other products before, it's one that end-users identified in focus groups as a key new benefit of Notes 8. In my mind, that pushes in favor of it being on by default.

  1. 26  David Leedy  | 6/26/2007 7:30:52 AM

    @22 - Richard, I think that it should be off by default for the very reason that "there's no guarantee that a message will be recalled before people can read it". It should be a decision by admins and management if the current user base can 'handle' this feature. I feel that other points like mixed environments help this thinking..

    If the odds of it actually working "out of the box" are less then 90% then leave it off be default.

    As for Exchange having this feature.. that's probably the main reason Lotus put this in... because Exchange has it.. But, and I know nothing about Exchange, I suspect this feature will work better in an Exchange environment because 1. it doesn't sound like it's an option, and 2. historically they don't update Exchange as often, so it's more likely that exchange servers are on the same version. Again, that's a guess on my part.

    Since Domino has this as an option, and there are tons of mixed envorinments with all the flavors (r5, ND6, r7) etc... I just don't think this feature has a good chance of working well "out of the box".

    As such it should be off.

  1. 27  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 6/26/2007 8:00:31 AM

    Personally I like having all the new features turned on by default. As the sole developer/admin I didn't always have the time to go scouring through all the various documentation to track down every single new feature and document how to enable it for my users.

    The argument that users will get confused reeks of arrogance and condescension to me. Educate users on how it works instead of assuming they're drooling dolts. They feed and dress themselves and make it to work. I think they can handle a message recall feature. If it confuses them that badly they just won't use it.

    Apparently the *users* in Mary Beth's focus groups have indicated they wanted this feature, so who are we to disagree just because we believe it might be somewhat difficult to implement? We shouldn't be the feature police just because we can. That's both Big Brother and BOFH { Link } . I think our job is to provide input when asked and help management move things in the direction they choose. If there are technical limitations let your management know so they can factor it into their decision-making, but ultimately *they* are the ones making the decisions. If it upsets you so badly that it won't work in a mixed environment, stick to your guns and disable it until all mail servers are on Domino 8. It's not that hard to do.

    @15 - No one is saying you have to deploy with message recall on, it's just that UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING it will be. If you need to turn it off for some reason, then by all means turn it off. The mechanism is there.

  1. 28  Flemming Riis  | 6/26/2007 8:10:33 AM

    imo its a useless feature in exchange and it will be a useless feature in domino, there is 0 control over how a client or server will react when you send outside of your own domain, its a hack that cant be trusted.

    but if its back to feature war i guess it have to be there in domaino also , new features should imo always be enabled and just documented that its a new enabled feature.

  1. 29  Rob McDonagh http://www.CaptainOblivious.com | 6/26/2007 8:13:54 AM

    ON by default. Admins and architects have to exercise professional judgment about features like this one all the time, and if they want to turn it off, they can. I'm quite sure that Richard Schwartz is right about the compliance and legal issues - Exchange shops have to deal with the same laws.

    Despite the fact that I, too, consider this one of the most ridiculous "features" ever invented, it IS considered a standard feature for corporate email now. As such, the fact that Notes now supports it should be front and center, and especially in new configurations in organizations that setup their first N/D 8 server the full feature set should be enabled by default.

  1. 30  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 6/26/2007 8:31:14 AM

    @24 Since message recall doesn't work at all outside of the local Domino domain, if Samantha is going to think it sucks because it might not work within her domain, then she's going to think it sucks pretty much no matter what.

    And she already thinks the same thing about Outlook/Exchange's message recall -- which also isn't smart enough to know that the message I just sent to my gmail account (and only to that account) can't be recalled either. It just happily sends a recall message, which shows up as a second message in my gmail mailbox. But Outlook does at least put up a dialog with some text that pretty clearly says (to anyone who actually bothers to read it) that the feature won't always work. Does Notes do that? (Haven't tried it.) If it does, and Samantha fails to understand it, then there's no satisfying her anyhow.

    I'd rather this feature didn't exist at all in any mail system, because it is inherently a lie to users. I'd rather IBM had stuck to their resistance to implementing it, but they put it in. They didn't put it in because Samantha is going to love it. They put it in for competitive reasons. Microsoft didn't invent this feature, but they've been crowing about Lotus' lack of it for years -- and despite the fact that the feature inherently sucks they've got a substantial number of people believing that its one of their key advantages over IBM. If it ships disabled by default in ND8, then Microsoft just goes on crowing "Sure, IBM put the feature in, but they know it doesn't work in most environments and they're so ashamed of it that they've disabled it by default. They're deliberately making more work for the customer to get what they really want."

  1. 31  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 9:19:01 AM

    @30 - "...she's going to think it sucks pretty much no matter what."

    Imagine that. ;-)

    None of this really contradicts my trackbacked point, though. This is yet another feature being put in front of the user for the sake of bragging about having it. It adds complexity to an already over-complex interface, at a time when we're supposed to be worrying about simplification.

    The reason I paint a complex picture for the feature failing is because it's going to burden Samantha, right out of the gate, with this giant cognitive demand to understand the meaning of message recall, and all the ways it might not work. This in a new world of integrated Sametime, Day at a Glance, Activity Manager, RSS Feeds, productivity editors, an Open button, new toolbars, and who knows what else I can't think of off the top of my head. Need we burden her with yet another edge feature that's likely not to a) be applicable to her in the first place and b) work as she expects it to anyway?

  1. 32  Pete McPhedran  | 6/26/2007 9:21:10 AM

    On by default

    If this was a 7.x release, I would say off as it is a minor "upgrade". However, since this is a major upgrade and basically a new system, I agree with the turn on all the cool new toys. Any organization that just "upgrades" to a X.0 product without planning and carefully considering all of the new features, deserves whatever mess they create for themselves.

    <sarcasm>

    Of course, if IBM was truly in tune with the masses, they would customize the download/order at the time the customer orders the product. Want fries with that? ;-)

    </sarcasm>

    Regards,

    --Pete

  1. 33  Peter Smith  | 6/26/2007 9:42:06 AM

    @31 Will Samantha really be burdened? I think most users will initally focus on the core functionality they already use day to day, and investigate new features at their leisure.

    I never feel burdened by the features and options in Word, as I just use the ones I need to write my document. When I want to do something more I search out the functionality I need.

    For every user you cocoon by hiding new functionality you'll frustrate many more who are waiting to be "delighted" by new features and options.

  1. 34  Gregg Eldred http://www.ns-tech.com/blog/geldred.nsf | 6/26/2007 9:54:18 AM

    I am glad that I am not the person that has to make this decision. No matter what you pick, it seems as though you will frustrate someone. Me? I frankly don't care what you do, I'll figure out how to turn it on/off, as the case warrants. And you can bet that I *will* read the Release Notes. :-)

  1. 35  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 9:56:18 AM

    @33 - "I never feel burdened by the features and options in Word,"

    And yet Microsoft spent and risked HOW MUCH on designing the Ribbon UI? I know that the Ribbon has met with flat market response in most cases (not as much as Vista, though) but I for one respect the radical departure that MS took from a clearly outdated interface model. The fact that users have trouble with it is due to a lack of a transitional mode from one model to the next, not to an inherent weakness in the new model.

    I know Notes 7 users today who fire up Notes 8 and feel lost. I sit next to several of them. You can also find them on the public beta forum.

  1. 36  Bill Geimer  | 6/26/2007 10:04:33 AM

    Off by default, please.

    Did you ever hear of a lawyer that would allow evidence to be destroyed? Has anybody looked into the legal ramifications of the recall feature, either in general or in regulated environments? S-0X anybody. S.E.C., anyone?

  1. 37  Dennis  | 6/26/2007 10:13:51 AM

    The problem with recall is that it builds an expectation that can't always be delivered. On by default? Great, make it clear in the release notes and I'll deal with it. My company has already been educated as to its limitations.

    We had a president email a list with all terminations/why to "Everyone" instead of home office HR. The issue of recall was discussed at length. We were able to retrieve/delete all copies within minutes (not a large company). Many users still had read it. The grapevine also worked quite well. The boss was appropriately embarrassed. The end result? The "Everyone" group was abolished. The problem with some users and computers is that they can be so efficient:-)

  1. 38  Volker Weber http://vowe.net/about | 6/26/2007 10:28:33 AM

    Although I am with Nathan on the "simple is better" I would vote for "on".

    Reasons:

    1. If it was amongst the most-requested features, by all means switch it on.

    2. If it gets switched off during roll-out, it will most likely never get switched on. Exception: IT organizations with careful planning. For those it does not matter, since they will switch in off and then on as needed.

    Having said that, it probably does not matter.

    (A) SMB customers who get an install once, never touch again, do not have enough internal mail traffic that would benefit from the feature.

    (B) Large enterprise customer most often suffer under IT management that makes decisions on behalf of their user. ("That is a silly feature which gives us more support calls. Let's switch it off.")

  1. 39  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 10:34:42 AM

    @38 - "Although I am with Nathan..."

    Uh oh... Beezlebub is getting frostbite!

  1. 40  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 6/26/2007 10:48:51 AM

    @36: Of course it's been looked into, and there are no legal ramifications!

    Did you ever hear of a lawyer that was concerned that recipients have the ability to "destroy evidence" by deleting their own messages? If you have, was that lawyer not satisifed by the fact that this feature can be disabled by a simple ACL tweak? If you know of such a lawyer, I have one word for the advice he dispenses: incompetent.

    In organizations that fall under strict compliance regulations, competent attorneys will advise that journaling of messages must occur simultaneously with message delivery, and that the journaled data is to be written to tamper-proof storage systems as soon as possible. This is the standard legal judgment, and for anyone who follows it deletion of messages by recipients does not cause compliance problems. Deletion of messgaes by administrators does not cause compliance problems Recalls won't cause compliance problems.

  1. 41  Rob Ingram http://www.dominoblog.com | 6/26/2007 11:09:53 AM

    @36 Just wanted to clarify the compliance impact of mail recall. In short, mail recall should not interfere with existing compliance or retention processes for SEC etc.

    For compliance and retention, journaling is necessary and mail recall does not by-pass this. There are many other ways users can easily delete and mail from the mail file. A journaled/archived copy of every mail that is delivered is an essential part of any robust compliance/discovery solution. In fact Domino's mail recall implementation ensures that even a message recall request gets journaled and captured.

  1. 42  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 6/26/2007 11:24:03 AM

    @40 - There you go, raining on the uninformed knee-jerk reactions with your facts and real world experience. Some people just aren't any fun! ;-)

  1. 43  Danny Lawrence  | 6/26/2007 11:24:48 AM

    Off by default.

    Not only is it a "misleading" feature (ie it works internally, but not externally) but it is also a change to previous behavior, and as such shouldn't be turned on by default. You can turn in on by default in Notes 9 maybe, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

  1. 44  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/26/2007 11:53:55 AM

    @43, Danny, there are a LOT of changes to previous behavior, and many of them are on by default.

  1. 45  Pedro Quaresma  | 6/26/2007 12:06:27 PM

    Does Outlook/Exchange have it on or off by default?

    Since it's a new feature, I'd say use the same settings that Outlook/Exchange has, or else Notes 8 might be victim of "Outlook has/hasn't this feature and Notes hasn't/has" FUD...

  1. 46  Bryan Kuhn http://btkuhn.blogspot.com | 6/26/2007 1:18:11 PM

    I attended a Lotus Notes 8 Seminar today in Charlotte. I asked the question of whether Mail Recall would be on by default knowing you had posted this. The individuals at IBM said flat out it would NOT be turned on by default. Is this faulty information?

  1. 47  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 6/26/2007 1:23:41 PM

    @45 - The message recall in Outlook 2003 is enabled by default and cannot be disabled, either on the client or the server.

  1. 48  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/26/2007 1:34:18 PM

    @46, Bryan... do you really expect a decision that the product leaders are trying to make -today- to be communicated out to a field organization of thousands? They are going based on the information that has been communicated so far. If we change it, we will tell the rest of the organization that it has been changed.

  1. 49  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 6/26/2007 2:00:45 PM

    @21, many of you missed Nathan's excellent point, one which I have already had to deal with.

    In a mixed environment of R7 and R8 the recall did not work with R7, naturally, and the byproduct was a group of emails which bounced back(well returned) and had cryptic failure messages which only after I checked them were all the recall notices!

    So, my input is default should be on to not interfere with the rest of the network or to ensure no SMTP failures or Lotus connector failures in mixed MS shops.

    I can envision the critsit meetings on this one in the future.

  1. 50  Mika Heinonen http://siipi.com/mika | 6/26/2007 2:49:51 PM

    It must be ON by default. Recalling Mail is a MANUAL function, so the setting doesn't actually matter until the user manually launches the "Recall Mail" function, and then it MUST be on, else the user would just think "another bug in Notes".

  1. 51  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 6/26/2007 3:20:31 PM

    Mika, the question is whether that little button shows up for the user by default.

  1. 52  Mika Heinonen http://siipi.com/mika | 6/26/2007 3:32:38 PM

    Yes, why not. Users want more functionality anyway, and there's too much work to be done manually when working with e-mails. Quickr should be included in Domino by default, so the need to store attachments on a local file system or file server would be void.

  1. 53  Stephen C Wales  | 6/26/2007 6:00:13 PM

    On, please Ed.

    Notes users are intelligent enough to cope with the change.

    After dealing with both user types over the last ten years, my opinion is that Notes users will cope better with the change ("On"), than migrating Outlook users can with the current change to off.

  1. 54  Pat Lyons  | 6/26/2007 6:24:09 PM

    **This Answer Has Been Recalled**

    (Kind of irritating isn't it)

  1. 55  Karen Hooper  | 6/26/2007 7:40:59 PM

    I do alot of end user training in Lotus Notes, typically out of a class of 10 users I might be lucky to have one user that has used Lotus Notes before. At first they don't like Notes but then by the end of the day they like/love it (which shows end users need training, hopefully 8 will be more intuitive for them.) I typically get the question of can you recall an email, I say no and then hastily add (in defence) that in Outlook if the person has read the email it can't be recalled. They always reply that they know that. Ultimately we are providing services/functionality to the end user, this is not about us and our predigest against other products. We may know it's flaky BUT to the end user it at times can save them embarrassment & make their job easier. Show it as available to the end user, provide the doco around it for both the admins and the end user, especially regarding mixed environments and focus on getting it working correctly. If Exchange can do it surely IBM can !

  1. 56  Tim Haugen  | 6/26/2007 8:57:20 PM

    @30 - "...she's going to think it sucks pretty much no matter what."

    --- Wasn't that the conclusion of a recent Gartner report? - everybody hates their corporate eMail, regardless of product?

    @40 & 41 - RE: Legal/Compliance issues -- The issue is not whether the messages are Journaled/archived prior to delivery and/or retraction - you're correct - competent architects/administrators of regulated firms should have that covered... The issue is the position of the intended recipient -- With journalling/archiving, there's even more certain evidence that he/she was sent the information, yet wtih the existence of Recall, can we rely on the fact that he/she had that information at that point in time?

    All said, doesn't really matter if it's on or off by default -- the competent architect/administrator is going to determine the appropriate setting or timing of implementation for his/her enterprise. From IBM's perspective, the "cost" of those of us at large, regulated enterprises turning off the feature if necessary is probably far less than the "benefit" of having the feature on by default to ensure that less shackled users/admins are sure to realize the feature is available.

  1. 57  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 6/26/2007 10:15:05 PM

    @all

    Thanks for the input. We had a very lively discussion this afternoon. Either Mary Beth or I will provide an update in the next few days.

    One observation -- y'all are a lot less formal over here on edbrill.com vs. the comments on Mary Beth Raven's weblog... I also chuckled because the comments on some of the non-IBMer blogs about this were even less formal/more direct.

  1. 58  Rob  | 6/27/2007 12:55:24 AM

    @56 - honestly - I *much* prefer my gmail account over Notes. Quicker response, great search, message stacking, connect from anywhere, degrades on low bandwidth, etc..

    That being said - I'll throw another vote for ON. There's no real harm if it's not wanted, and it's better to have a feature in there than not.

  1. 59  Jan-Piet Mens http://blog.fupps.com | 6/27/2007 2:50:05 AM

    Off by default.

  1. 60  Hynek Kobelka http://www.pylonware.com | 6/27/2007 3:00:56 AM

    I actually think that it does not matter at all what default setting will be and i don't understand this lenghty discussion. No admin does an upgrade to a new main version without prior testing and evaluating its new features. If he decides that he wants this functionality it is no problem for him to turn it eighter on or off, regardless of its initial setting.

    I'd rather focus the discussion on the functionality itself and how to improve it. I have not yet tested it myself but i would like to know if it can handle "local replicas". If someone sends a mail to a user. This user then replicates his mail database (without reading this message). Then the sender sends a recall message. Will the message in the server replica be deleted ? (it has not been read yet)

    What happens if the user then reads the message in his local replica and then replicates with the server. Will the deleted message from the server delete the already read message in his local replica ? Or is there a solution for this ?

  1. 61  Christian Petters http://www.cubetoon.com | 6/27/2007 4:52:36 AM

    Have it turned off please as a default. This feature will never be enabled in our environment. Only over-my-dead-body :-).

  1. 62  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 6/27/2007 7:45:50 AM

    On by default.. please...

    "MS guys walks into the room... Yeah... Lotus do have that feature, but it doesnt work out of the box...."

  1. 63  Rob Ingram http://www.dominoblog.com | 6/27/2007 7:59:58 AM

    @60 The recalled message, once deleted from the server copy, will also be deleted from the local replica and in fact all replicas of the mail DB. This is true even if the message was read.

    There is a user inteface choice to recall messagages even if message has been read. There is also a recall status report that can be requsted to tell the sender if the msesage has been read or not. All of this depend on Domino 8 mail servers being in place.

    Screenshot here { Link }

  1. 64  Kevin Mort  | 6/27/2007 9:25:52 AM

    The stupid thing is that Paul is likely correct (@62).

    Nevermind "doesn't work" and "not enabled" aren't really the same thing...splitting hairs there perhaps.

    So I suppose enable by default just to quiet the detractors. Really disappointing that it would have to be done that way.

    K.

  1. 65  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 6/27/2007 1:21:09 PM

    manual trackback { Link }

  1. 66  Kevin Pettitt http://www.lotusguru.com | 6/27/2007 1:54:18 PM

    Maybe I'm missing something but why is this a purely either/or, on/off question? I'm not exactly sure how best to do it, but somehow, probably just after the Domino Directory design is upgraded to the 8 design, the admin(s) should be asked to look over a (small) list of new settings and accept or change them before hitting "OK". If no one ever clicks it, the new defaults become active.

    I also don't see why it should be so hard to distinguish between external and internal recipients of an email, and present appropriate messages and/or hide recall buttons depending on a particular message. So for a message with only a gmail recipient, the button could be completely hidden. In a mixed situation the user would see a message saying that the message cannot be recalled from soandso@gmail.com but an attempt will be made to get it back from MyIdiotColleague/MyCompany@MyCompany.

    Off the top of my head, the "confirm new settings" feature might be done by:

    - Sending a "Welcome to Notes 8" email to the owner/administrator listed on the server configuration document(s). The email would contain the form with a list of new features and radio buttons for enable/disable, with in this case the recall feature defaulted to "ON". The user would be asked to make any desired changes and click OK. Only the first person to click on the Ok would have any effect, so some sort of "already done" message would pop up on subsequent attempts.

    - Alternately, the email would contain a button or link to another interface showing the same stuff, with the same protections against duplicate effort.

    - Or the confirm new features page might be shown during the first Domino 8 server upgrade, assuming it's possible to detect that its the first (which I do assume).

  1. 67  Sean M  | 7/6/2007 8:16:55 AM

    Recall only makes it easier on the incompetent and careless. I would prefer that they suffer the consequences of their mistake when they email the semi-nude vacation pictures to the entire office, or send some email gossip out to the entire organization.

    Many of our users here use rules to forward email to their personal accounts or devices, and we also have a decent size Blackberry community who do not all have the synch of deleted email turned on in their blackberry devices.

    As long as we have a choice for this recall feature then we will test it out ourselves to determine what will and will not work our environments.

    FYI, I would much prefer an un-delete feature for email folders.