Stowe Boyd joins the "Notes sucks" meme

January 8 2006

Stowe Boyd has been reading Sim', Dave, and me...:

The point that is missed by the Lotus Notes advocates is that people want to be able to communicate, collaborate, and coordinate with anyone, not just those who are using the same programs as them. That's why email was the killer app of Web 1.0 -- it worked that way. And Notes has fallen by the wayside, an asterisk in the collaboration chronicles, but all being said, not really very successful -- aside from the acquisition by IBM as a counter to Microsoft's enterprise email dominance.
An asterisk?  How does a product get mentioned as one of the "ten most important products of the 1990s" if it is only an "asterisk"? And how could you describe a product that is growing double-digits (over the last several reported quarters), that has 61,000 global customers today, and that is the basis for literally millions of collborative applications as "not really very successful"?  

Stowe seems to have missed the chapter in Notes history, ten years ago, where Domino made Notes applications available via web browser (and now, in Domino 7, via web services).  It hasn't been the case for a very long time that it only works for "those who are using the same programs".  The classic example, from way back in 1998, is Chrysler's SCORE application, which involved their suppliers in saving billions of US dollars.  Many of the Notes successes over the years are extranet types of scenarios.  There's also the element of surfacing Domino applications in portals or WebSphere applications, another way of extending them (which, too, has been available for many years).

Putting aside the past history, Notes is about to be reinvented, yet again, for the next generation of collaboration.  One of the major objectives of Notes "Hannover" is a platform for "composite" applications, expanding its reach beyond Domino server applications.  Notes, in this scenario, will be able to leverage/surface componentized collaboration services.  You'll be hearing more about this (and seeing it) in the weeks ahead.  

Now the last bit is that Stowe believes
The right thing to do is to build collaboration into the apps that people are using. Or build small, focused collaborative apps that do one thing right. This is one of the lessons of Web 2.0.
Yes, the vision of "contextual collaboration" has been in the industry for several years now.  Part of the promise of Web Services and SOA is to do exactly this.  But building small, focused collaborative apps that do one thing right -- the industry actually tried that over the last several years, and it hasn't exactly worked out.  Think of Zaplets, or Kubi's 1.0 incarnation, or Radnet, or tons of other single-purpose collaboration tools that haven't gone anywhere.  I remain hopeful that it will come out of the current and future work from IBM, Microsoft, or left field -- but I doubt that the idea of a rich, integrated client will fade anytime soon.

Link: Corante Get Real: Lotus Notes sucks >

Ed Brill Highland Park, IL USA Category:  Lotus  Add/View Comments [29]

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  1. 1  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 1/8/2006 11:09:37 AM

    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    And BTW, if you want to do trackbacks, check out { Link } It's manual, but it will let you do a trackback from a story here to a story in any blog that supports trackback pings.

  1. 2  Julian Robichaux http://www.nsftools.com | 1/8/2006 1:26:30 PM

    Here's my take on the whole "sucks" thing:

    Given the right context, everything sucks.

  1. 3  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 1/8/2006 1:39:09 PM

    When you compete against Microsoft you have to be twice as good to be considered equal. We still win Notes / Domino business up against Exchange and Microsoft's collaboration stack. We have customers trading in Exchange for Domino. If that's an asterisk, it's in a 96 pt bold font.

  1. 4  John Head http://www.johndavidhead.com | 1/8/2006 1:39:44 PM

    Ed will be getting trackbacks once we upgrade him to the newest projectdx. I am testing it now. We will update before lotusphere. :)

  1. 5  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 1/8/2006 7:07:53 PM

    Julian, "and blows on the other end" :-)

  1. 6  Julian Robichaux http://www.nsftools.com | 1/8/2006 7:44:10 PM

    Yikes! :-)

  1. 7  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 1/8/2006 8:40:57 PM

    After reading Stowe's article, I'm beginning to think we need an equivalent to UrbanLegends sites for IT articles like this. It's soooo wrong there's really nothing more to say on it.

  1. 8  Greg Wojcicki  | 1/9/2006 5:41:14 AM

    I often wonder: if Notes is such a bad product, then why would Micrsoft hire such people as Ray Ozzie or Gary Devendorf, Charlie Kaufman, et al?? Hmmm. MS should have a add campaign like, "Microsoft - the imitator, not the inovator."

  1. 9  Mick Moignard  | 1/9/2006 6:00:32 AM

    Ed - you say "But building small, focused collaborative apps that do one thing right -- the industry actually tried that over the last several years, and it hasn't exactly worked out. " Surely the building of small, focussed collaborative apps is *exactly* what Notes has always been about? And that has worked out, as you say, 120m users and 61000 customers can't be wrong.

    Mick Moignard.

  1. 10  Sean Burgess http://www.phigsaidwhat.com | 1/9/2006 9:57:39 AM

    @9 What I think Ed meant is "small, focused collaborative platforms". When you have to learn a technology just to do one little thing, it's tough to get that type of setup to do really well. Why would anyone use a tool that can only do one thing unless it does that one thing so much better than anything else. Right now, I don't see that type of separation from any of the one trick pony apps out there.

    Sean---

  1. 11  Richard Collette  | 1/9/2006 9:59:28 AM

    Ed,

    I have been developing in Notes since the day of the 4.0 release. On a positive note, I can say there are plenty of things that can be done in Notes better, faster and in a more integrated fashion than with any other tool. At the same time, I can also say that it seems that it has been a long time since Lotus/IBM has paid attention to core functionality that it needs but which IBM is really just too afraid to touch. How many LotusSpheres are going to go by where you hear about printing? And here's the remaind of the list.

    https://www-10.lotus.com/ldd/nd6forum.nsf/55c38d716d632d9b8525689b005ba1c0/cbb23f01eff55e9485256d6c007b38ad?OpenDocument

    Note that I am not making derogatory comments but providing concrete examples of what is lacking and it is surprising that not one of these has been addressed since 2003.

  1. 12  Andy Dennis http://andydennis.clp.org.uk | 1/9/2006 11:22:15 AM

    Call, me cynical, but another round of Lotus Notes bashing prior to Lotusphere!

    Can't anyone start a web site up why Lotus Notes doesn't suck ????

  1. 13  skip  | 1/9/2006 2:30:03 PM

  1. 14  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 1/9/2006 3:36:07 PM

    I remember meeting Stowe a few Lotuspheres back - he loved to talk, but as I remember, his eyes glazed over when you tried to talk to him. Then I saw his blog, where he describes himself as a "well-known media subversive"....WTF. That was enough for me. No need to go back there.

    Glad someone's keeping tabs on him though....As much as I would like to deny him more undeserved attention, it would be tempting to have a huge asterix as the unofficial theme of Lotusphere 2006. I'm thinking t-shirts, stickers, screen savers, backgrounds....At least everyone should have at least one big one-slide asterix on their Lotusphere presentations.

  1. 15  Marshall Wilensky  | 1/9/2006 6:51:59 PM

    I worked with Stowe Boyd for a few years in the late '80s. His attitudes (and appearance) were far less subversive then.

    @14 I too have bumbed into him from time to time and found that he was much less interested in listening than talking (or was it selling?).

    I would love for him to show me any other multi-platform, multi-protocol, n-tier client/server application development and execution platform that does half of what Notes/Domino can do! Especially one with a life-span anywhere near as long.

    "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

  1. 16  Alan Lepofsky http://www.alanlepofsky.net | 1/10/2006 12:59:03 AM

    @12... I think my web site is a good start! { Link } I've been on vacation since the start of Dec and am returning at the start of Feb, but in my absence some of my colleges have been helping keep the tips rolling. We all know that Notes/Domino is better than Outlook/Exchange in security, scalability, reliability, etc... so my site is dedicated to helping the end users like the Notes client, the area that is most often criticised.

  1. 17  Axel  | 1/10/2006 7:06:30 AM

    For my taste, it were far more interesting if more experienced Domino aficionados would share their doubts about the platform. Some might call it splintering.

    I found that allways a strong point in Java/EE. The often but not allways focussed critic of Rod Johnson, Ted Neward, Hani Suleiman, Mike Spille or even Bruce Tate were truly helpfull and often fun to read.

    Random general observations by someone who haven't used the system deep way as exposed here is simply waste of time. If everybody were knowing the edges a true expert finds challenging. Well. That makes a healthy platform.

    There are some. In his field surely Ben Langhinrich, sometimes codestore.net or Damien Katz. I believe that it would be helpfull if not critical for Lotus Workplace to find a hard working, competent, out-spoken and discerning app-developers base.

  1. 18  Axel  | 1/10/2006 7:35:48 AM

    ... and the most successfull Domino apps I know doesn't rely 100% on pure Domino, but integrate some bonus features by some other apps.

    examples:

    - Rich Text formatting by integrating MS-Word and/or geniisoft libraries

    - some form of DHTML-wizzandry

    - heavy usage of Win-Api

    - rolling their own i18n instead of using global workbench.

    They rely to a great extend on domino, but take certain other features from an aditional programming platform or library.

  1. 19  Jeff Crossett http://my-portal-project.crossedconnections.org | 1/10/2006 8:58:15 AM

    Although I agree that the "notes sucks" mantra is for the small minded, and typically the uninitiated, I hope that we do not grow too complacent.

    Keep in mind that Microsoft did not hire all of that Lotus talent for the fun of it. They are making good use of it and although MS rarely is the inventor, they have a strong tenacious streak when it comes to catching up. I hope IBM keeps this in mind for R8.

  1. 20  Alan Dalziel  | 1/10/2006 11:19:40 AM

    The point that is missed by the Lotus Notes advocates is that people want to be able to communicate, collaborate, and coordinate with anyone, not just those who are using the same programs as them.

    ??????????????

    If M$ is so great at doing this, why do I have to repeatedly remind people using Outlook to NOT set me as a M$ Rich Text Recipient so I can receive file attachments correctly in any other email client?

    As for Notes sucking, Julian's comment is applicable. My observation shows that M$ sucks, to non-M$ users. Contextually, if you use M$ the MSRTC setting is a non-issue. If you use T-Bird/Notes/Eudora/Squirrel etc, the M$RTC setting is an issue.

    It's like that dumb buzzphrase from years ago - "Think outside the box". M$ is the box, and stays inside it. IBM, the open source community and many others don't acknowledge the box exists . . . .

  1. 21  Charles Robinson  | 1/10/2006 12:12:22 PM

    What I still fail to see is how anyone with any level of technical acumen can possibly compare Notes and Domino to Outlook and Exchange. You might as well compare a Fiat to an SUV. They're the same only in relatively minor ways. You can't do 180 mph in an SUV, and you can't haul lumber in a Fiat.

    Given that, I can see why IBM might have ignored Microsoft so far. From IBM's perspective they have competed in two different market spaces with minimal overlap, but that is quickly changing. Microsoft has produced (or acquired) most of the components that comprise what Domino does. With the people from Lotus going to Microsoft I can see those disparate components becoming more integrated and Microsoft finally having a serious challenger to Notes and Domino.

    IBM has a history of innovation, there is no arguing that. They also have a history of getting things almost to the finish line and leaving them there to stagnate (poor OS/2). Microsoft does minimal innovation, its focus is on polish and marketing. To put it in another perspective, IBM is to Microsoft as IBM is to Dell. IBM's hardware and software are technically superior to nearly all competitors, IBM just doesn't put the polish on it and leaves the door open for competitors to come in and take over markets IBM created.

    As far as I'm concerned Notes and Domino are currently the only choice for quickly creating robust and secure collaborative applications. That doesn't mean they are great or wonderful, just that they are the only thing of their type available. I sincerely hope that IBM/Lotus gets its act together and makes Notes and Domino into the products they deserve to be before the rest of the industry formulates a serious response.

  1. 22  Axel  | 1/10/2006 12:18:27 PM

    As a funny sidenote:

    Talking about critizising platforms.

    Do you know that the most cynical satirist of anything Java/EE (former J2EE) -> { Link } is a respected member of the highest steering commitee of that platform ? Together with some startups like IBM, Bea, Oracle, SAP or Apache Software foundation. Look at the bottom of this page:

    { Link }

  1. 23  Damien http://damienkatz.net | 1/10/2006 12:32:47 PM

    Odd, not only is that page not available, Stowe's whole blog is gone from the Corante site. The other blogs on that site are still available. Wassup?

    My 2 cents about Notes sucking: Notes is an amazing distributed database platform whose core technologies and capabilities are still unmatched in the industry. But it's power is marred by a far too heavy, complex and inconsistent front end. I don't know much about the Hannover stuff, but is seems like its adding complexity on top of complexity while simplifying nothing.

  1. 24  Michael Osterman http://www.ostermanresearch.com | 1/10/2006 5:26:01 PM

    We're nearing the end of a survey asking end users about their email practices. As part of that survey, we're asking about users' satisfaction with their primary email client in the context of how well it meets their needs. At this point, we've found relatively little difference between users of Notes, Outlook and GroupWise in terms of their level of satisfaction, although a slightly higher, but not statistically significant, percentage of Notes users report they are 'very satisfied'.

  1. 25  Nathan T. Freeman  | 1/11/2006 2:02:23 AM

    @23 - "I don't know much about the Hannover stuff, but is seems like its adding complexity on top of complexity while simplifying nothing."

    How can you possibly make a statement like that? The first half of it makes the second half completely irrelevant.

  1. 26  Axel  | 1/11/2006 6:40:56 AM

    I am very happy that in my favourite domino forum, people are starting to work with Eclipse RCP. The results looks promising so far. Much better than general debates about if its complex or not. Of course the Eclipse API is complex.

    But not anything complex is crap.

    Reminds me on other pointless debates around the year 2000 if its usefull to employ smart dhtml programming to provide much better user experience for notes apps on the web. Others said that its much more inteligent and "simpler" to rely 100% on the Domino way. Today we know that smart dhtml programming became a well respected and successfull branch in Domino App development.

    Lets remember that anything eclipse is constantly exposed to the critics of lots of experienced Java programmers. Not all this critics are pointless random over-generalized statement. I now and then find issues in Eclipse or its subprojects, but still I believe that its a solid and thriving platform.

  1. 27  Charles Robinson  | 1/11/2006 8:30:49 AM

    @24 - If you only look at Notes as an e-mail client, and if you only ask the question "Does it meet your needs", the majority of Notes users would likely say yes. If you ask my users "Is it difficult to find the features you want to use" they would say yes. If you ask them "Do you find it difficult to use" my users would say yes. If you ask them "Are you tired of attending Notes training" my users would say yes.

    I would also be interested in seeing the demographics of who was surveyed and the industry they are in, as well as who sponsored it. But I, for one, won't be paying $2K to find out.

  1. 28  Colman Carpenter http://carpe.homedns.org | 1/11/2006 8:48:34 AM

    Cynical, uninformed Notes-bashing...sure. And the points should (and are) being refuted. But I'm pretty chilled on the Notes-sucks site(s)...any major piece of software is going to have it's detractors. I'll wager that the ratio of fans to detractors for Notes is more positive than that for most MS products :)

  1. 29  Axel  | 1/11/2006 9:58:55 AM

    I believe there is a silent, inteligent and right-minded mayority between fans and detractors.

    Some sites of the internet does not contribute to the growth of this mayority.