Ed Brill

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1. 1  mike  | 9/23/2008 6:02:09 PM

   "...and Charles lets rip on Lotus Notes – his least-favourite collaboration tool – with IBM's Ed Brill."

   ouch

1. 2  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/23/2008 6:10:31 PM

   @1 did you actually listen to it? This is the kind of copy that editors often write to get the attention of readers/listeners. The actual podcast isn't nearly so flagrant.

1. 3  Ian M  | 9/23/2008 6:18:35 PM

   You put yourself and Notes across well Ed. It's just a pity that your hosts clearly had their fingers in their ears, eyes screwed shut, saying mantras to themselves, as you talked. They weren't interested, and the ignorant babble from them at the end bordered on the embarrassing. Are they really informed technology journalists?

   That said, at least you had a chance to make your points.

1. 4  mike  | 9/23/2008 6:36:19 PM

   @2 Yes. They made some good points, you made some good points. It was a good interview.

1. 5  Mike Brown  | 9/23/2008 7:26:10 PM

   Embarrassing from the Guardian's side, I thought. Despite saying that they're trying to understand why Notes is so widely deployed, it was quite clear that Charles Arthur wasn't interested in any such thing. He merely wanted his own preconceptions confirmed.

   I mean, how many times does he say "email", "calendar" and "imap" during the podcast? It's quite clear that's where he's coming from. When Ed mentions the other applications that Notes does, surely a logical question (I mean, for anybody that's genuinely interested) would have been "really? What kinds of applications does it do?" But he doesn't ask that, or anything like it.

   Instead, he goes banging on about the Domino server being rather good because - wait for it - it does POP and IMAP!!! And it's not like there's a zillion mail servers out there, many of them freebies, that do POP and IMAP, is there? (Domino's POP and IMAP must be shit hot, what with all those companies buying it just to run those services).

   He also still clings to dividing the Notes world up into two groups: end users (hate it), and Devlopers/Admins (love it). What's not clear is who he thinks Notes developers are creating applications *for*. Each other, presumably. I can't be for end users, because they're all using mail and calendaring only and they hate it (don't ever forget).

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 6  NeilT  | 9/24/2008 3:57:44 AM

   Nice to be positive Ed. I was engaged to do a 1 day consultancy for a Newspaper on Canary Wharf back in 2004. When I got there I found that they were running on an AS/400 which had been sized for half the users, had been expanded over multiple versions and was running at 90% memory and 98% disk space utilisation.

   Overnight Compact was not completing within 24 hours and the FTI was simply not coping at all. Disk was 99-100% utilised at all times and they were unable to utilise their Cluster partner to alleviate the situation as it had 50% of the capacity and performance (again bad design <> bad product but it does lead to bad perception).

   Last I heard they were going Wintel to cut costs....

   Is it ANY surprise at all that the users get a bad perception of the product? In this newspaper the users were losing access to the system at every peak period and they used it for apps during their full production day (to 2am) so they could not shut it down for maintenance.

   I was able to gain some control back by shutting down FTI and making some cluster and other changes which radically improved performance at a loss of QOS to the user.

   In the end all I could say was UPGRADE NOW!

1. 7  Dvir Reznik http://dvirreznik.blogspot.com | 9/24/2008 4:07:10 AM

   Couldn't download the podcast so I was forced to hear the first 21min of the podcast... Palin came up couple of times.

   Anyhow, to the Notes portion:

   Why stick to 'email, calendar, contact'? and POP3/IMAP? OK, we get it, there are free web mails out there, but how many businesses are using '@gmail/live/yahoo' as their business domain? and Notes has so much more than messaging in it.

   Didn't understand why they hate Notes so much...

   Overall Ed, I think you conveyed the message well, market share, why Notes is NOT Outlook or IMAP/POP3 client and what we've done to address the issues raised by the community (users/developers ;-).

   Well done!

1. 8  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/24/2008 4:12:07 AM

   Ed - I think you came off well in this.

   They bitch about Notes after the interview, but also don't know what to recommend as an alternative, and then go to google apps as a possible option.

   Lets see... they stuck with R5 for how long??? Just recently they moved off a 10 year old mail template.. yet its the product's fault that it was outdated.

   So... If I use Outlook 97 and hate it.. its Microsoft's fault yes?

   Guardian lives up to its usual standards. Ed, for patience alone with these guys, you deserve a medal.

   If this was a real journalistic approach, surely they would have to disclose they were using the very old version and also make a point of reviewing the latest software. When they latest version of office comes out, they would review it? But still slam notes because they have an old version.

   Very disappointing to listed to a journalist like that. But I have the feeling they couldn't care less.

1. 9  Mike Brown  | 9/24/2008 4:14:59 AM

   And what was all that stuff about not being able to attach a Windows shortcut to an Notes email? This happens at the end of the podcast, when Ed is, presumably, safely off the premises. Charles Arthur says:

   "I got an email from matey over the internet that says he can't embed a Windows shortcut into a Notes email, and even though I don't know matey from Adam, I'm going to take his word as Gospel, because he hates Notes and I hate Notes so we must both be right"

   ... or words to that effect.

   The funny thing is, it works fine for me. I tested on Notes 7 and Notes 8 Basic. Okay, you can't right-drag a file to a Notes email body and have it pop up a "Create Shortcut?" option, which would be nice. But you can create a shortcut on your shared drive and then drag *that* your Notes email and it works fine; for me, anyway. Is that so difficult or unintuitive?

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 10  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 9/24/2008 5:00:21 AM

   Ed - thanks again for coming in to the studio. It was an interesting interview, and I'm glad you were able to put your points.

   @Ian, @Mike Brown: what I was really after was a clear picture of why Notes is so embedded. The email I read out after the interview is a classic example of the users/developers divide. Yes, developers are developing for users. But developers don't always develop what users want (this is not a Notes-specific point, by a long, long, long chalk).

   I think that the question of whether other collaboration tools (such as Google Docs etc, Backpack, SaaS products of various stripes) can do *enough* of what Notes does to be a threat is a key question for the years ahead. If people find they can do the same with different for less, they probably will. We didn't discuss this in detail in the interview, but the Guardian is shifting towards Google-based collaboration tools, from Notes-based ones. That's only one organisation, but it's 1,000+ seats. If we do, will others?

   Anyway, I look forward to seeing Ed again, and the invite to the podcast remains open any time he's stopping by.

   Charles

1. 11  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 9/24/2008 5:35:42 AM

   I shudder to think that some IT Professionals actually look up to these journalists as a source of accurate or even valuable information.

   I follow the author's blog from time to time and it's clear to see that Charles is an intelligent guy with a good education and general knowledge. He writes some excellent commentary about various political, financial and other events around the world.

   What I don't understand is why he doesn't actually take this much interest in the topics involved in his day job.

   It strikes me that Charles Arthur has done approximately zero research since he interviewed me for the previous Notes related article back in 2006. He had the same pre-conceived ideas, the same agenda and pretty much the same questions. How anybody could put their name to such poorly researched and imbalanced articles, yet still regard themselves a broad-sheet journalist, is simply beyond me.

   As an amusing aside, my wife (who's only ever used Outlook) was listening in to the podcast. Afterwards she asked me how to attach a shortcut when she sends an email as she didn't know you could do that and it wasn't obvious to her how to do it. Precisely the reverse of the guy featured in the podcast. Clearly The Guardian have never Googled for "Outlook sucks" either...mainly as they don't use it on their Macs.

1. 12  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 9/24/2008 5:47:52 AM

   @10 - Charles,

   By contrast, I work for an organisation that's moving away from other collaboration tools towards Notes.

   Over the last few years we've started using Notes/Domino products for document management, intranet, instant messaging and HR activities such as booking holidays and performing annual appraisals - saving us licensing costs on the previous alternatives. Initially we were just mail/calendar but every year our Notes licenses become increasingly better value as they allow us to replace other tools.

   We're only one organisation, but we're 300,000+ employees. If we see the benefit, then why don't others?

1. 13  Mike Brown  | 9/24/2008 6:06:37 AM

   @10

   Greetings again, Charles.

   >> The email I read out after the interview is a classic example

   >> of the users/developers divide

   The email that you read out was certainly a classic example of *something*! Did you take the trouble to confirm that what it told you was actually *true*? I'm guessing not. (Remember, the guy said "shortcut" which means Windows, not Mac).

   Maybe he's using a really old version of the product, in which case I suppose you're going to counter with "n+1". (For those unfamiliar with Charles' "n+1" argument, please see this post { Link } on his personal blog).

   >> I think that the question of whether other collaboration tools

   >> (such as Google Docs etc, Backpack, SaaS products of various

   >> stripes) can do *enough* of what Notes does to be a threat is

   >> a key question

   Absolutely. And undoubtedly, there will be companies that make that decision; the Guardian among them it seems. However, I believe that those kind of pressures will be mostly felt by companies that are not using the product for the purposes for which it was designed in the first place; e.g., the 30% (I think that was Ed's figure) using it for email/calendaring only. Any company that is really using the product to its full potential will quickly dismiss such as move, IMHO. I'd also say that Microsoft has a much bigger exposure in this regard, because Exchange/Outlook is Email/Calendaring only, and that makes it much easier to replace for *all* its customers!

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 14  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 9/24/2008 6:45:14 AM

   @6: that would have been the Mirror Group, I'd guess. Famously tight-fisted.

   @11 - well, thanks for the compliments, Ben. But if you think I'm Score 5: Insightful about economics, politics et al, is there a possibility that I've got a different perspective about Notes - because I've got no vested interest in it - that means I ask questions that need asking? I'm not antagonistic for the sake of it; and the interview was not antagonistic. (I can do those too. This didn't merit it.) I'm trying to get Ed to explain Notes's SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats) because I think people almost always fail to get past the noise of developers saying "It's great!" and users saying "I hate it!"

   @7: @8: "Didn't understand why they hate Notes so much..." "If this was a real journalistic approach, surely they would have to disclose they were using the very old version and also make a point of reviewing the latest software."

   Well, read @NeilT: many organisations *do* struggle along with amazingly old versions. Yes, Mike, it *is* the N+1 argument ("you hate version N? Ah, you need version N+1 - it's all fixed"). Which is why Ed made the point of bringing along Notes 8.5, and I did try it (briefly), and I did mention it after the interview: as I said, it struck me as being like Microsoft's Entourage (a Mac-only app).

   Again, this discussion illustrates to me the core divide in the Notes world. With the rise of the net, and of apps like email - which pretty much nobody had when Notes was built - things have changed. Users are used to apps that are intuitive, which don't let them do foolish things, and which let them down gently. If an *interface* doesn't do that, they get frustrated.

   Furthermore, while Notes may be buttering toast and washing your mother in the back room, that's just not visible to the people out front, who are wrestling with the interface. There may be a study out there about HCI with large do-everything interfaces; I might try to hunt one down.

   Being able to build any application in Notes is not necessarily a strength, because many developers are really bad at writing apps that users can use. Perhaps worth bearing in mind.

   @Mike@13: if 30% of Notes installs are only using it for email/calendaring, that's quite dangerous for Notes, I'd say. Free or cheap alternatives with usability from the internet age must be a real threat there.

1. 15  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/24/2008 7:37:08 AM

   @14 - N+1 is fine... with you it is N+N. Disliking an old product is perfectly fine... but as journalists you should mention you are using a version that is by technology standards, ancient. Thats not your fault. Im sure you guys have to bow to your IT policy.

   Notes is as good as people that develop the applications. Applications that are developed poorly are not the product's fault. In that we agree.

   Your references were mainly to the mail functionality in the podcast - you are using an ancient version of it and did not disclose it. Its that simple.... A simple remakrk of "in fairness, the version we use here was R5 on a Mac (a truely horrid product) until recently" would of given it a balanced approach.

   Disappointed. But again, Im sure you are not bothered by that.

1. 16  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 9/24/2008 8:00:31 AM

   Charles Arthur still doesn't get it does he... Ed explains that Notes is more than just e-mail and Charles asks "why not just turn on IMAP on the Domino server?".

   "Free or cheap alternatives with usability from the internet age" just don't cut the mustard for corporate customers - look at any decent-sized e-mail deployment and there's a whole ecosystem of solutions around it - some may say that's a good argument for software as a service but not when it takes away the control and security.

   The point about an ex-Outlook user who didn't know how to create a link to a file in Notes doesn't mean Notes sucks, it means that Notes is different. That point came across as incredibly biased and unbalanced. I could come up with an equal amount of things that Outlook can't do that Notes can, or that Outlook does differently. Notes has a different solution to not sending round file attachments... and actually Notes' solution is far more secure and manageable than the chaos of files on shared drives. And ultimately probably more user-friendly.

   Charles, you've seen Notes 8.5 now and you thought it was okay, fair enough, that's your opinion. But that lady who spoke after you (Jemima Kiss?) called it awful, unintuitive, bloated and messy - has she seen Notes 8.5 or is she basing that opinion on a previous version?

   I think your statement that end-users hate Notes and the only Notes fans are admins and developers is a massive generalisation. Ed clearly explained the work done on the UI and usability and was man enough to admit that it was something that needed to be done, but the podcast just sounded like having another pop once he was safely out of the building.

   Final point - as usual there was too much focus on e-mail. The podcast failed to address a strength of Notes 8, the fact that it's more than e-mail and is addressing new modes of collaboration, some of which are evident right now (e.g. activity-centric computing) and some of which are still to come (to be discussed after announcements are made). The point is that when businesses are ready to become more effective collaborators than being tied and reactive to mail boxes, Notes is ready. I don't see other e-mail clients embracing that ideal.

1. 17  Darren http://www.dadams.co.uk | 9/24/2008 8:16:42 AM

   @15 - I agree Paul... Notes 'N' is now, but many of the people who say they dislike Notes are running N-3 or N-2. When they compare that to the current version of Outlook that's not exactly fair.

   I spoke to some end users a couple of weeks ago who said their version of Notes looked old and clunky - I agreed with them... well, version 5 was released over 9 years okay. Some of the people who admitted to being strong advocates of Outlook were wowed by the UI and features of Notes 8.

   There's nothing wrong with software vendors advocating the latest version, which users might not have yet. It's called progress. And Ed detailed, a lot of that progress has come thru usability testing... not only with existing Notes users but also with users of other e-mail systems, including the intuitive web-based e-mail solutions. Did your brief look take in all of the e-mail improvements and new web integration such as widgets and live text?

1. 18  Mike Brown  | 9/24/2008 8:22:04 AM

   >> Yes, Mike, it *is* the N+1 argument ("you hate version N? Ah, you

   >> need version N+1 - it's all fixed")

   Thought so! It's an argument that you seem to reserve exclusively for Lotus Notes. And as I asked (unanswered) on your blog thread to which I linked:

   "why, for example, go to the trouble of installing Leopard before opining on Apple operating systems? Surely, an old review of System 7 would do just as well"

   Be honest now: if the email that you read out had been putting the boot into Mac OS rather than Notes, you'd have asked "what version", wouldn't you?

   >> many organisations *do* struggle along with amazingly old versions

   Indeed. But does that mean an IT journalist's responsibility to research his subject ends at reviewing what's under his own nose (that day) because he thinks that's what most other companies are running anyway? If so, then the Guardian's Technology section and Blog would be an extremely dull read (bites tongue, don't say it, don't!) For a start, you'd have to restrict Jack Schofield from opining on the wonders of Windows Vista, because precious few companies have "upgraded" to that dud. For 'tis cursed with the "smell of death", so I'm told ;-)

   >> things have changed. Users are used to apps that are intuitive,

   >> which don't let them do foolish things, and which let them down gently

   Like, for example, Hotmail? Which intuitively won't let me open an email in a new browser window or tab? And which lets me down gently by stripping attachents off any email that I save as a draft, with no warning whatsoever? (Yes, I know that you're no MS fan; I'm just making the point that all apps, even "Web 2.0" ones, have their "issues").

   >> while Notes may be buttering toast and washing your mother in

   >> the back room, that's just not visible to the people out front

   Unless the "back room" goes down, of course. In which case, everybody "out front" notices in a big hurry! And not, perhaps, in the way that you might think. Let me, for example, tell you how a Domino crash would be noticed by the "people out front" in the small company that is currently keeping me off the streets (and beaches). Our (IT Dept) phones would start to glow red in this order:

   1) Operators for our Cheque Issuing application would not be able to pay cheques to our customers. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe more) per day. If that app goes off-line for more than one hour, then its operators go to some kind of mini Disaster Recovery situation.

   2) Operators of our Customer Management System would not be able to track any of our customers cases. That's the key people in the company (IMHO) sitting around, picking their noses.

   3) Operators of our Customer Management System would not be able to see customer email held in our customer email systems. "Aha!", you say, "that's email, isn't it?" Indeed, but it's not a personal email box. All customer email goes into central repositories, where it's recorded, evaluated, logged and tracked via customisations to the email box, added by the likes of yours truly. Customer emails are converted to Customer Management System issues (see 3)at the touch of button.

   4) Blah, blah, blah (dozens of other systems I've either forgotten about, or can't be arsed to write about now)

   ....

   37) Last, and very much least; internal users unable to access their personal mail boxes.

   This is all guesswork, of course; in the 18 months I've been there, we've never had a Domino crash.

1. 19  Craig Wiseman http://www.Wiseman.La/cpw | 9/24/2008 8:47:14 AM

   @10/14 Charles, thanks for showing up!

   "Can you please step around to the back side of the building, we'd like to beat the cr@p out of you..."

   This is a no-win scenario here - if he doesn't comment, he's oblivious, if he does, he's toast.

   Let's try and limit our "he doesn't get it" comments and focus on real points where he's wrong. 8-)

   Like not dicslosing that you are forced to use an ancient creaky version on a daily and that MAY .possibly. influence your perception. BTW, it's funny that you say you have no vested interest, because you clearly DO. And that's OK, if you share it up front.

1. 20  Paul Mooney http://www.pmooney.net | 9/24/2008 9:09:17 AM

   @19 That was my point.. Its why I said it was disappointing instead of slander or abuse.

1. 21  Sean Jennings  | 9/24/2008 9:14:46 AM

   Isn't this all abit of a storm in a tea-cup? After all, who would seek to get specialist informtation (whether it be IT, medical, scientific, etc) from any daily-rag for goodness sake? Its the equivalent of George Soros determining his investments based-upon the Guardian's financial editorial!

   BTW in the UK the "Guardian" is known as the "Gruniard" due to its infamous spelling-mistakes, and presumably the inability of its staff to use spell-checkers (assuming their technology is sufficiently up-to-date to include spell-checking....)

1. 22  Craig Wiseman http://www.Wiseman.La/cpw | 9/24/2008 10:16:05 AM

   @20 - Agree, completely. I used something that sounded similar to you because you seem to have a thick skin and I wanted to make the point before something nastierish came along.

   You know how these things go.. first couple of posts are polite, then the claws come out...

1. 23  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 9/24/2008 10:24:13 AM

   @21 - In honesty, calling the paper "The Grauniad" or indeed "The Gruniard" is the same kind of bad as saying Notes 5 sucks.

   I'd say the typographical errors of The Guardian aren't significantly more than those of other publications these days. Indeed, even the treasured British journalist haven of the BBC seem incapable of proof reading a document before it hits their news site.

   By contrast though, the BBC are capable of checking their information is both accurate AND relevant before publication.

   We need to leave the past in the past and dated cheap shots like attacking The Guardian's ability to spell isn't really going to help our argument for not looking at past products as an indication of today's performance.

1. 24  Ian Scott  | 9/24/2008 10:50:04 AM

   'The Grauniad' was coined by 'Private Eye' in the days of manual type setting. Since newspapers adopted electronic systems the mistakes have largely gone away from all of them. 'The Guardian' is, as Ben says, no better or worse than the rest these days.

   That aside, I agree with those who say that the journalists could and should have declared the current version of Notes they are using. In not doing so I think they endeavour to mislead. I also think the reason they do that is because if they acknowledged it they would have to recant on many of their published opinions and they can't bear that.

   As for the notion that users 'hate' Notes I can only say that such generalisation is complete and utter rubbish and certainly unbalanced. My users love the applications I build for them with Notes. Sure, they may have the odd gripe about their mail but when arrayed with the custom applications they use the majority say they love it!

1. 25  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 9/24/2008 11:36:46 AM

   I think that the installed version of Notes pretty much across the building is R7. (Might be R6. I'm not in the office at the moment.) On Macs, it doesn't have scroll wheel support, which has always surprised me somewhat since that API has been part of Mac OSX since 2001. *That's* the sort of thing I mean about interface.

   @MikeBrown, if you listened to the interview I said that Domino is good. That's clear to me from my research: very few security hassles, very reliable. Good server.

   I wasn't "reviewing" or basing my interview with Ed on the Gdn experience with Notes. I could have gone round the building and asked end-users if they liked using it. That would have been pointless. Instead I tried to get Ed to talk more widely about where Notes is going. (You have all listened to the interview, right?)

   Also on the N/N+! argument: the point about that is that it comes up again and again. The comparison with Vista is flawed. If peoples' only experience with Windows was through their company, then yes, people would be saying "Vista? Never heard of it." Because companies would decide when to update to new versions of Windows.

   As for "you're comparing it with the latest version of Outlook.." A question that occurs: howcome everyone seems to be on new versions of Outlook? Is the upgrade cheaper, or more compelling?

   @MikeBrown: on Hotmail - it stinks, indeed. But it's not an app, strictly speaking. (Cloud computing arguments aside.)

   One other question. I didn't get to try to reply to an email with Notes 8.5 on the Mac. Is the shortcut Cmd-R? That for me would be a clincher.

   I still think that in try to demonise me for my reaction to Notes, instead of the wider point I'm trying to make about where Notes is now and where it's going, is to miss the wood for the trees.

1. 26  Ian Scott  | 9/24/2008 1:37:29 PM

   @25 - Thank you for offering some clarification on the version of Notes you are using. It levels the playing field somewhat although it makes it harder to grasp your negativity towards Notes! May I ask, does 'The Guardian' use any custom/bespoke Notes applications?

1. 27  Brett Hershberger  | 9/24/2008 2:02:09 PM

   Point taken Charles, but when you keep throwing Notes in front of the bus, how is anyone going to get to said woods?

   You "say" you are interested in where Notes is now and where it's going, yet you only "really" talk about it's past... Instead of lamenting on previous shortcomings, actualy look at the "N" version and talk about that because THAT is where Notes is now and where it's going too. NOT the N-2 or N-3 version that you seem so happy to tell everyone about.

   Please take a more detailed look at the "N" version of Notes, I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.

1. 28  Mike Brown  | 9/24/2008 3:47:49 PM

   @25 Charles,

   >> I think that the installed version of Notes pretty much

   across the building is R7. (Might be R6. I'm not in the office at the moment.)

   I'd say it's still 6 (that's N-2, Charles!)then, seeing as 7 *does* have mouse scroll wheel support on the Mac (as I think I've told you previously).

   >> that API has been part of Mac OSX since 2001

   Sure, but were 2001 vintage Macs sold with scroll-wheel mice? The ones my then company employed on their Macs back then had no scroll-wheel and only one button. Still do for all I know!

   >> I didn't get to try to reply to an email with Notes 8.5 on the Mac. Is the shortcut Cmd-R?

   Not on the beta I currently have. There's no other keystroke defined for Reply either....

   >> .... That for me would be a clincher

   Put it in, Ed!!!

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 29  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 9/24/2008 5:32:20 PM

   @26: "does 'The Guardian' use any custom/bespoke Notes applications?" No idea. Not sure how I'd find out, and it's only one company, so not representative of anything.

   @27: the interview is about where Notes is, and is going. There's no point telling me to "take a look at the N version of Notes". I can't. Will it talk to our old Domino server? (Doubt it.) Will it work outside the building? (Seriously doubt it.) And my use of Notes would tell nobody anything about its use in companies that rely on it. I don't rely on it as a user; I simply don't use it. I use other apps, like Apple's Mail and iCal and Address Book with LDAP.

   @28: Notes 6 dates from 2002 ({ Link } (And look at the debate there. Exactly the same as you hear here.) Scroll wheel support - well, I was using a scroll wheel mouse in 2002 on a Mac. I bought it at a shop.

   The Cmd-R shortcut is a key thing which is sooooo indicative of attention to UI details. Anyone used to Outlook, Mail, Entourage will say "why is my work experience so different from home?" Do Notes users stop using email and the net when they go home?

   Here's the thing. DON'T BLAME THE USERS. They know what they like. It may seem irrational and it may be different from what they "should" like, but in the end, it keeps them happy. Software should make people happy, not frustrated. That's all.

1. 30  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 9/24/2008 5:53:21 PM

   I've been offline much of the day.

   @29 and earlier - Charles, I appreciate you jumping in here. I think the disconnect my readers are expressing is kind of the same as I felt listening last night...we had a great interview, and yet as it comes out, your co-host on the podcast just rips Notes to shreds without any knowledge, and your comments are narrowly-focused. I can tell from your comments here and in person that you have a broader sense of the product.... I am just not sure whether you feel, perhaps, that since it's the product everyone loves to hate, you are going to get more applause taking that position.

   I note that the first comment on the Guardian website was from an end user who loves Lotus Notes. See, you got one, in mere hours.

1. 31  Giulio http://www.buzznotes.com.au | 9/24/2008 6:37:21 PM

   @Charles

   .... yawn... zzzzzz.. Charles, you've been on about this for years with nothing new to add.. it's embarrassing..

1. 32  Mike Brown  | 9/24/2008 7:05:25 PM

   @29 Charles

   >> There's no point telling me to "take a look at the N

   >> version of Notes". I can't.

   Sure you can, if you can be bothered. Trial versions of Notes 7 (N-1) and Notes 8 (N) are freely downloadable from IBM. For the Mac, it's the 8.5 (N.5) beta. You'll need a spare Mac to install it on though, otherwise it will overwrite your current installation. But then, if you're not using that anyway, you've nothing to lose there I guess!

   >> Will it talk to our old Domino server? (Doubt it.)

   Yes, it will. You should really consult your IT Dept for attempting such a thing, however. Who knows, they may even set it up for you if ask them nicely.

   >> Will it work outside the building? (Seriously doubt it.)

   Yes, it will. As part of the installation process, you get the option to use it against a POP3 or IMAP server. I sometimes set mine up to sync with my Gmail account via IMAP when testing new versions of Notes and I don't have access to a Domino server (i.e., I'm out of work!!) There's a bit of tweaking involved to get to work with Gmail, as the latter is fussy about which handshaking protocols it will accept.

   >> And my use of Notes would tell nobody anything about its use

   >> in companies that rely on it.

   No. But it would have told you that it has mouse-wheel scroll support (N-1 Mac) or that it looks like Entourage now and "doesn't look awful" (N.5 Mac beta).

   >> Do Notes users stop using email and the net

   >> when they go home?

   This Notes user uses the likes of Hotmail, Gmail and Facebook email when he goes home. And all your precious keystrokes are null and void there. Refresh (as in browser) is the behaviour that I expect from Cmd-R, not Reply.

   Cheers,

   - Mike

1. 33  Ian Scott  | 9/25/2008 1:04:18 AM

   @29 - So you are employed by 'The Guardian' but don't know if 'The Guradian' uses any bespoke/custom Notes applications and you are a journalist and you don't know how to find out. I am dismayed.

   Perhaps you could ask your IT department or Google it or read the help or you might even open 'catalog.nsf' and have a look through it.

   I did and do have a point to develop irrespective of the answer but I'll hold back until you get up to speed. No pudding unless you eat your greens!

1. 34  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 9/25/2008 4:44:53 AM

   @32: "You'll need a spare Mac to install it on though, otherwise it will overwrite your current installation." Hmm.

   @32: "You should really consult your IT Dept before attempting such a thing, however." The IT folk are busy enough; they don't want to spend their time supporting me doing unsupported things, if you see what I mean.

   @32: as for keystrokes in browsers - might not happen in Hotmail, but Gmail in the browser certainly supports keystroke commands.

   @33: I don't have a pressing need to find out whether the Gdn uses custom apps. It doesn't affect this story.

   @30 - Ed, it's hard when my co-hosts only know Notes through their end-user experience. Come back another time and we'll do it live rather than pre-record, and we can see how it goes.

1. 35  Mike Brown  | 9/25/2008 5:19:12 AM

   @34 Charles,

   >> Gmail in the browser certainly supports keystroke commands

   So it does! I stand corrected.

   A couple of provisos though:

   1) You have to explicitly turn them on, under the options menu. Not something that I'd ever have thought of looking for. I've never seen an application that had a "keystrokes on or off" switch before. Truly, you live and learn.

   2) The keystroke for "Reply" is simply "R", or Shift->R to reply in a new window. I thought Ctrl->R (PC) or Cmd->R (Mac) were the universal standards to which every email client but Notes adhere?

   >> The IT folk are busy enough

   I'll bet. The big move to King's Cross and all that. Probably not the best time to ask. Best of luck with all that, btw.

1. 36  Richard Hogan  | 9/25/2008 7:32:46 AM

   @34 Charles,

   I think there is a disconnect between the picture that you see and what people familiar with Notes in the enterprise see. It would appear that your perception of Notes is that is is simply an email client, to be judged alongside consumer email clients and hosted email. I think that this completely misses the point of what Notes does in the enterprise.

   What you need to understand is that Notes Domino is a base of technologies and facilities that comprise everything that is needed to rapidly build enterprise class applications using a single server.

   The Notes email client just happens to be one of those applications that comes free with the system, and even if a lot of Notes people would concede that the interface to the email application was not what it could have been before Notes 8, it was still extremely usable and, in my opinion, provided some key features, such as search, that were far superior to the main competitor in the enterprise.

   However the story only begins with the email application. Most enterprises that use Notes use it for far more than just email (and some don't even use it for email). Notes allows you to rapidly create enterprise class business applications that are server based and secure, and that can also be securely replicated between servers, and even offline. Users can access these apps via the Notes client, or a browser, and these applications can interact with and exchange data with all the other corporate databases and services that you find in the enterprise, using standard protocols.

   You say that Domino is very flexible because it has a POP and an IMAP interface. But that is not what makes Domino flexible and is not among the top features that make Domino valuable to the enterprise. You also say that you don't know if your company uses any bespoke Notes applications! I would suggest that that is an important gap in your research, and the fact that you wouldn't think this is important means that you are not seeing the complete picture of what Notes is about. It's easy to dismiss Notes on the basis that it doesn't support Ctrl-R, etc., but it's hardly a proper appraisal of the platform!

1. 37  Bernard http://www.arcsystemdesign.co.uk/ | 9/26/2008 11:21:17 PM

   How embarrassing for the Guardian. They use Lotus Notes, and for years their technology correspondent is happy to publicly trounce Notes. He fails to disclose that his opinions are mostly based on his experience of old products (the R5 version of Notes works on OS X in OS 9 compatibility mode - it's like running a DOS version of Notes inside Windows XP).

   This technology correspondent then goes on to admit he hasn't go a clue about a renowned feature of the Notes infrastructure - that a R8 or R6 client will talk to an R4 or an R7 server. ["Will it talk to our old Domino server?" @29]

   Another thing that sets Notes apart from the competition is that doing email is a small part of what Notes does as a technology. Does he know if the Guardian uses Notes for more than email? Nope. He's only a technology correspondent after all.

   He doesn't even know what version of Notes they're using (why bother, that would mean doing some really difficult research, like bringing up the 'About' menu). I bet he'd be embarrassed to admit that he didn't know if he was using OS X 10.4 or 10.5. Or that he couldn't tell you which version of Outlook he's been using for years. After all, he is only a technology correspondent.

   If a secretary or accountant couldn't say whether or not their company used Notes for more than email it would be understandable. But not a technology correspondent, someone who supposedly less informed people look to for insight and knowledge. He just shows it's not difficult to have a job as a technology journalist and unashamedly espouse opinions about something about which you know little more than the man in the street. In my last company we had end users who knew more about Notes than he does. He goes on about he's interested in SWOT, but actually from what we've seen he's got no interest in the strengths of Notes.

   I wonder, did Ed just doorstep this guy outside the Guardian's offices? That must be the explanation. Surely any unprejudiced technology correspondent (knowing he will broadcast an interview with the face of marketing for a global company) would actually do some research? Maybe download the latest version of the software so he could talk knowledgeably about it and not show himself up. Maybe he could get on the phone to the IT guys and ask if the latest version of Notes would talk to an older server, or ask what else it's used for besides email? Or maybe the guardian has no IT department. Is it the Mary Celeste, and Notes has just been running there with no admin for the last 5 years? Surely it can't be that this technology correspondent has plenty of access to Ed Brill, ibm.com, google and an IT department but had already decided to do no research because he might have to change his opinion?

   It's no wonder I have no respect for journalists (most of them say 'refute' when they mean 'reject'). This episode does nothing for the professional standing of journalists, and does nothing for the Guardian.

   Having said all that, IBM does bear some responsibility for the perception that Notes is only email. For a few years it was not marketed by IBM as suitable for anything but "messaging applications". I used to complain about this marketing, and I believe Ed was the one who got that changed. Still the period when IBM seemed to only be positioning Notes as suitable for "messaging applications" was but a few years in the long history of Notes.

1. 38  Brett Hershberger  | 9/29/2008 11:05:59 AM

   Hi Charles, you would do well to take Bernard's words to heart. Your bigoted and biased opinions are so antiquated, that it's making me embarrassed for you. Putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and going "nah nah nah I can't hear you" just goes to show how ignorant you have become towards anything that is "different" to your current opinion.

   I'm sure you know that technology changes often and rapidly. Yet you and your bandwagon-jumping female co-host have deliberately closed your eyes to anything new from Lotus. Even in your responses here in this forum you are still espousing the same uneducated opinions.

   If you truly are a "Technology Correspondent" then please stop embarrassing yourself and "correspond" about something a little more current... perhaps something from this century would be nice.

   You also might want to do a little research before going up against some of the most knowledgeable people in the IT industry. It's pretty obvious that you are just flying by the seat of your pants, making it up as you go along and jumping on the bandwagon of others that don't "know" either.

1. 39  Charles http://guardian.co.uk/technology/ | 10/8/2008 8:41:16 AM

   @Bernard - I'm taking it that you haven't listened to the interview. You also haven't read my comments: I couldn't find out immediately which version of Notes is used in the building because I was out of it, and I don't run Notes on my personal machine from which I was posting.

   Clearly though you simply aren't interested in hearing my opinions, or those of others. That's a characteristic that's common across all sorts of technology backers, I find: there simply cannot be any faults, and anyone who does find fault - or ask about weaknesses - is simply an unbeliever, and should be reviled. It's very boring. I do an interview about Notes as an enterprise application; here I talk about its usability; you choose to describe your blanket dislike of journalists based on whether some know the difference between refute and reject. (You left out 'rebut', by the way, which people often use wrongly too.)

   @Brett: "perhaps something from this century would be nice." A point you overlook is that individuals don't get to choose which enterprise apps they install. They get what they're given. Which is why in the interview I focussed on the enterprise challenges for Notes. True, the talk after focussed on Notes's usability, based on an old version.

   Here's an interesting thing, though: we use Adobe CS3 and OSX 10.4 across the org. Those are comparatively new. Maybe if Notes's new features were considered essential to our workflow, we'd have updated. (Perhaps @MichaelBrown would tell why not.)

   I have to say though that I do tire of personal attacks when I criticise a product. It's like dealing with Apple fanboys. That's not a place where people who want Notes to win wide acceptance should be, in my opinion.

1. 40  Ian F Scott  | 10/9/2008 7:23:02 AM

   @39 - And have you managed to find out if the Guardian uses any custom or bespoke Lotus Notes applicaions?