Ed Brill

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1. 1  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 12/14/2005 10:20:31 AM

   About your point #4: you and I both know what the reaction would be if Microsoft denied IBM the opportunity to exhibit at one of its conferences. "Evil" would be about the mildest adjective you'd hear directed at MS. In fact, I'm sure everyone here remembers the kerfuffle when you were temporarily excluded from the MS Notes migration events this spring.

   It's certainly IBM's right to decide to whom they'll sell exhibit space. However, their refusal to sell a booth to MS says volumes about how strong IBM's competitive position is (or at least how strong they think it is) vis-a-vis the MS collab stack.

1. 2  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/14/2005 10:30:29 AM

   What happened this spring about the migration events was about a screw-up with Infectus or whatever that registration company's website was.

   ATTENDING an event is completely different than EXHIBITING. Do I think we have a great competitive position? Duh. Do I want to invite my competitor right into my living room and meet my children, even if their kids go to the same school? No sir.

1. 3  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/14/2005 10:31:20 AM

   sorry PS I should be crystal clear -- nobody is stopping MS from attending Lotusphere.

1. 4  Rob Wunderlich www.dominounplugged.com | 12/14/2005 11:27:35 AM

   We just had Gary Devendorf breeze through town for a presentation at our Notes User Group, and he built a great case for MS and Domino co-habitation.

   From his perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

   He made the comment that a lot of Microsofties were wondering why he wanted to be "nice" to Notes developers rather than trying to convert them. His response: kinda like teaching people to learn a foreign language by forcing them to unlearn English first. Or talking them into a new car by firebombing their old one.

   He figures leveraging the best from both sides of the fence is what makes sense ... and it's hard to disagree.

   But, his website ... yikes! ({ Link }

   - Rob

1. 5  Gary Devendorf www.msdomino.net | 12/14/2005 12:18:57 PM

   Yes my site is very ugly. Guess I should get someone to make it pretty. I suck at UI. However, there is some really good content to down load.

1. 6  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 12/14/2005 6:36:30 PM

   Sorry to be so contrarian this week Ed, but....Here's my thoughts on this one:

   { Link }

1. 7  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/14/2005 10:32:27 PM

   Tom has some follow-up thoughts at { Link }

   "The perspective of "the customer's the loser" only makes sense to me if you look at it from Microsoft's perspective. More accurately, I see it as "the prospective Microsoft customer's the loser". "

1. 8  Ross Hawkins http://www.merauderweb.co.nz/ | 12/15/2005 3:07:12 AM

   I really disagree with "the prospective Microsoft customer" being the loser.

   I've written / deleted and re-written this post a few times, as I can't quite get it to convey what I want to say, so I'll ditch my many paragraphs of rambling and try to summarise :)

   Most (although not all) Notes/Domino shops have some sort of Microsoft investment. Not many (but some) Microsoft shops have any investment in Domino. Who benefits most from demonstrations showing that the two technologies can play nicely together? You decide.

   (actually, who benefits most is probably me - the poor Consultant working for a Business Partner in a country where IBM has a pretty weak foothold.. but that's another story..)

1. 9  Nathan T. Freeman  | 12/15/2005 3:35:40 AM

   I wish I had the time and resources to go back through Ed's blog and see the number of times that someone representing Microsoft posted about the "secret plan" IBM had to really destroy Notes. I think that behavior alone justifies not giving them a presentation platform. I mean, if you're going to publically spread FUD elsewhere, why should you be given a soapbox at such an IBM event to do it?

   Remember that as much as a booth at LS represents the vendor, it ALSO represents the Notes/Domino community in general. And it's IBM's responsibility to foster AND police that community when necessary. (Heck they wouldn't even let us keep NotesOSS, and very few people had a problem with THAT!)

1. 10  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/15/2005 6:40:17 AM

   An interesting case in point: The Detroit Notes User Group featured a Microsoft presentation which was billed as "Integrating .NET with Lotus Notes". (See: { Link } )

   Now that you know how it was billed, go read Rob Wunderlich's summary of the meeting:

   { Link }

   " Many of us may have dismissed Sharepoint as a poor man's WebSphere Portal, yet Gary did a great job of explaining how Microsoft is positioning it. "

   Any questions?

1. 11  Cliff Reeves  | 12/15/2005 10:21:02 AM

   It's been common practice for the larger software companies and event organizers to allow direct competitors to participate (not simply attend -- but participate) in public events. There are a number of reasons for this:

   1) Customer value in integration, particularly when customers use complementary products or technology. Oracle on Windows for example, Visual Studio interop with BEA, etc.

   2) It's a sign of openness and confidence. Paul Robichaux's comment (#1 above) is important. I suspect Microsoft would get a drubbing if the situation were reversed.

   However, Lotusphere is not the sell-out event it used to be, and I don't think the loss to customers is huge for this one event. Bob Balaban made this point well in Duffbert's post. Plus, the Notes community is tight-knit and they can find Gary if they wish.

   I do think that stopping Gary exhibiting was a very bad PR decision and it is part of a more important signal that is actually very clear here in this blog. There's a relentlessly insecure theme here of:

   1) MIcrosoft is evil and stupid

   2) See, see! IBM really does love Notes

   Confident people don't behave this way.

1. 12  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/15/2005 10:40:02 AM

   @11 Hi Cliff.

   This must be why Microsoft restricted IBM from talking about Notes/Domino at TechEd Europe in 2000 and 2001, right? (the IBM Lotus stand showed Sametime and Quickplace only) Who knows what would happen if IBM wanted Lotus to exhibit at TechEd or some such place today -- I'd put $10 on what I think would transpire.

   The -message- about integration is being covered at Lotusphere plenty. By actual practitioners, not demo dollies. In several sessions. So I don't think customers are losing out on the message.

   I think playing occasional defense doesn't necessarily warrant an "insecure" label. But based on the way Microsoft plays this game, IBM does have to take defense occasionally. The boxing gloves are out and IBM is on offense a lot more this year than in the last several, but when a trojan horse shows up at a user group and then wants to show up in front of several thousand customers, I think the opposition is perfectly warranted in turning it away now and into the future.

   As for Lotusphere not being the sell-out event it used to be, find me events in the industry that are. Microsoft doesn't even run an Exchange conference anymore -- kind of funny given the ongoing claims of market leadership and growth that there isn't even enough demand for a MS-run conference about it.

1. 13  Cliff Reeves clifreeves.typepad.com | 12/15/2005 12:17:01 PM

   Ed ...

   1) You could without effort, restrict Gary to talking about interop. I doubt he'd be talking about Exchange or LCS anyway

   2) Tech Ed and PDC are sell out events

   3) Gary's never been a Trojan horse. That's just rhetoric. He is very clear, open, and honest about what he shows.

   4) I'm not sure what the "demo dolly" reference was about. If you meant people on the Lotusphere show floor, that strikes me as a somewhat pejorative view of your partners. If you are referring to Gary, then you have overvalued his looks and undervalued his abilities.

   Yes, it's clear the boxing gloves are out at IBM. The tenor of your response is clear.

   However, this is about business value and relationships, so boxing is possibly the saddest metaphor you could have selected. You are alone in the ring, Ed, and the arena is empty.

1. 14  Henning Heinz  | 12/15/2005 12:28:05 PM

   I would have given them a booth, especially as they had one last year. I would not even care what Microsoft did with their TechEd or something else. People that go to Lotusphere are convinced of what they currently use.

1. 15  Cliff Reeves cliffreeves.typepad.com | 12/15/2005 12:58:48 PM

   @14) Henning, I agree. It's not about recruiting Notes customers. I know Gary well. He covers this topic because most customers we see want to figure out how to get the best of, say, Domino and Sharepoint -- because they have both in house. Gary figures we should answer those questions, and make it easy to help people. He doesn't disparage, he respects Notes customers, and he doesn't recruit customers or people.

   This was a silly decision on IBM's part. They created a fuss over something that did them no measurable harm but did respect their customers interests.

   More on the topic here { Link }

1. 16  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/15/2005 1:09:50 PM

   Cliff, methinks ye doth protest too much.

   As is 100% in evidence by what happened at the Detroit Domino Pros meeting, the Microsoft presentation was billed as interop yet the pitch included SharePoint, enough so that a partner in attendance decided he needs to spend more time on that. How is that not a trojan horse?

   As for being alone in the ring and the arena being empty, the business rebound for Notes, the traffic on my blog, the 12,000 people who attended Notes/Domino 7 launch events, and the upgrade rate to 7 all seem to say otherwise. Don't you think?

   @14 Henning - I don't remmeber seeing you at Lotusphere last year.

1. 17  Cliff Reeves cliffreeves.typepad.com | 12/15/2005 2:18:26 PM

   Ed, no-one but you is talking about your blog readersjhip or your installed base.

   "... boxing is possibly the saddest metaphor you could have selected. You are alone in the ring, Ed, and the arena is empty." The fact that "the boxing gloves are out and IBM is on offense a lot more this year" is an odd way to describe a software business and doesn't have a lot to do with what's important to custoners.

   I know there are many happy Notes users. I am an IBM stockholder. I hope you do even better next year. I think you'll have more chnace of that if you're civil and confident.

   Talking about Sharepoint is what many Notes customers want to do. It's seldom either/or. Many have both and want to make the environments make sense.

   So, to be clear: neither the MS event you mentioned, nor Gary at Lotusphere is a Trojan Horse.

1. 18  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/15/2005 2:19:48 PM

   To be clear, yes it is. Thanks for visiting.

1. 19  Henning Heinz  | 12/15/2005 2:36:45 PM

   No, I weren't at Lotusphere last year but even if I attended that would not say much as Microsoft does not offer me much that is of interest to me. So even if they dance naked on their tables, chances are high I would miss it.

   I just think that the message that some Microsoft employees are now trying to sell (IBM is afraid, confident people don't behave this way) isn't worth it.

   I expect you are showing some "Hannover" stuff and let's face it. Whatever Microsoft would be be able to show at their booth it won't matter much if the stuff is only half as cool as that what I have seen on some presentations.

1. 20  Cliff Reeves cliffreeves.typepad.com | 12/15/2005 3:20:22 PM

   @18) Ed, one of the things that characterizes a debate is the premise-evidence-conclusion combinations. For example:

   -- Neither Gary nor the Detroit event was a Trojan Horse

   -- A Trojan horse is an offensive and deceptive device

   -- By far the most asked-for MS-Lotus interop topic is Sharepoint, VS and Domino.

   -- The Detroit event and Gary at Lotusphere were clear that each was about making MS and Ltus technologies work together and they emphasise those asked-for elements. For this reason, we don't see Lotusphere as a sales opportunity.

   -- QED

   Now, getting back to debating ... the only conclusion one can draw from your approach -- "to be clear, yes it is" -- is a conclusion about the person who says it.

   Maybe in your case, those boxing gloves you display are best left where they are -- hanging up :-)

   Best regards.

1. 21  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/15/2005 3:28:11 PM

   Cliff, did you read how the Detroit event was billed? Where was SharePoint mentioned in that? How does SharePoint help make MS and Lotus technologies work together?

   You are asserting that they aren't but not offering an explanation. As such, and given how I'm getting comments about how this mud-wrestling is out of control, this is done. Or as a friend of mine would say, "allowed" { Link }

1. 22  Paul Robichaux http://www.e2ksecurity.com | 12/16/2005 2:08:32 PM

   @22: well, I'm not Cliff, but I can answer your question: SharePoint is a terrific way to integrate and display data from LOB apps (which can be using who-knows-what on the backend), .NET Framework apps (which are increasingly prevalent at all tiers), Domino apps, and existing data stores of mail, calendar, and document data.

1. 23  Jim Bernardo  | 12/16/2005 5:29:46 PM

   Ed, stop being silly....

   For years, IBM has had exhibits at Microsoft events. IBM always had a rather large booth at the MEC. In fact, IBM was a SPONSOR of the MEC, if memory serves. I haven't been to TechEd recently, but it would surprise me not at all to see an IBM booth at TechEd.

   Denying Microsoft a booth at Lotusphere is simply childish, but, of course, IBM's right. Frankly, the booth Gary ran last year was one of the most popular on the show floor. I'm certain that got under your skin.

   It's your show, you can have whomever you want, or not, but as one of the ex-Lotus (10 years worth) Microsoft guys, who used to be part of the core staff that produced Lotusphere every year, I just think it's silly and childish. Whatever happened to doing what's right for our mutual customers?

   I fully expect you'll excoriate me here, because it really seems to be the main thing that interests you, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to even write, but ....

1. 24  Ed Brill www.edbrill.com | 12/16/2005 8:21:12 PM

   you know, Jim, I'm not going to.

   One, calling a business decision "childish" speaks for itself.

   Two, "IBM" is a diverse company that sells hardware and services, two very independent businesses that drive a lot of new business for Microsoft.

   Three, what's right for our mutual customers is including an array of high quality sessions during the conference, presented by actual coders and practitioners who work directly with customers, that discuss this kind of integration.

   And since you and Gary and the dozen other MS employees will be at the conference anyway, I'm sure that any customers who have questions will be able to get them answered.

   See you there.

1. 25  kudla mkudla.blogspot.com | 12/18/2005 12:06:22 PM

   Well, I'll be attending LotusSphere this year and I am involved in developing a product that supports both Exchange and Domino environments.

   In fact a number of our existing and potential customers have mixed e-mail environments as the result of acquistions and the like.

   Any information I can obtain about how these environments work together and how I can leverage any synergies as well as instruct my customers on how to do this (any yeah, this may involve migrating everyone to one platform) is useful.

   I am disappointed that Microsoft will not have a booth at LotusSphere.

   However, to be fair, I cannot say that LotusSphere is the most appropriate forum to present this information. At the end of the day, it is IBM's call to make.

1. 26  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 12/20/2005 12:37:05 AM

   Man! I got to this one late :)

   I totally agree with IBMs decision to deny an exhibitor competitor in it's own backyard event. This is exactly the type of thing IBM needs to continue to do. It's not a sign of being fearful- it's a sign of smart business.

1. 27  Gary Devendorf www.msdomino.net | 1/5/2006 7:57:36 PM

   Ed, come to ESPN Saturday night 1/21/06 (Turtle’s thing) and I’ll buy you a beer and we can talk about whatever. This has been a big fuss over a small point.