What is the future of Lotus Notes
August 10 2007
There is a new question on LinkedIn about the future of Lotus Notes. Great timing considering the upcoming release of Notes/Domino 8. How better to answer the question than by delivering code!
Now of course our competition has taken it upon themselves to turn this into a debate about Lotus versus the rest of the IBM Software Group and bring up terms like Workplace, essentially trying to shift the conversation away from the original question. I've responded (but I am not going to get into a long debate) but I am also asking you to respond to the thread if you would like. Please keep your answers as factual as you can, and try and help the author with his original request. Express your opinions (good or bad) about the future of Notes and explain why.
And here I was thinking I could sub for Ed for a week and not get involved in any political situations!
Post a Comment
Colin, I was wondering the same thing, but decided is was not fair for me to "assume" anything. I got involved because people contacted me of as I was listed as a subject matter expert. As to why some others decided to respond, or how they even knew about the thread in the first place, well I have no idea.
Being part of the Lotus community for about 9 years, my hope is that Notes will continue to be strong and widely adopted. But hoping is not enough sometime.
However, after using Notes 8 (beta 3) for a while and knowing the possibilities of expanding Notes, I do believe the days after Notes 8 released is brighter.
Speaking of delivering the code, should be making plans for this weekend or not?
That should have read "...should WE be making (or cancelling for that matter) plans for this weekend..." as in might there be other more interesting things to do? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
I'd say you should enjoy your weekend outside with friends and family, regardless of if Notes 8 code is posted or not! ;-)
Manual trackback { Link }
(Alan - might want to check the link you used, it comes up with a "your comment has been posted" at the top).
Interesting discussion, even if it was kicked off by a LION. A lot of the answers seem reasonable, and it's interesting to follow a LinkedIn discussion because it requires the poster to disclose their company.
Jim Bernardo's comment is interesting because we finally have him on the record with his same old story about how everybody left Lotus ten years ago. He claimed in a discussion a few months ago here that he never said anything like that blah blah blah... It also shows the myopia of the Microsoft spin. Tivoli? DB2? WebSphere? What do any of these have to do with Notes 8? "Notes is a fully depreciated asset inside of IBM" -- how the heck would Jim know something like that (aside from it being patently untrue, and there being more developers working on Notes/Domino 8 than any prior release).
Thank you to many edbrill.com readers (wow, a lot of you!) for offering more reasoned views, and to Alan for taking MS to task in-line in the discussion as well.
And yes, I'm contacting some of the customers in the discussion...
Thanks for the heads up, I updated the link.
I think one of the funniest posts was the guy who built a web app with form names ending in .asp who then showed it to a Microsoft bigot and he could not believe it was Domino.
The conversation is odd, though. The original question was just asking what the future was. But the pro-Lotus folks brought up MS conversions, exchange/Outlook, and all those common hot topics. Maybe it is because I've heard it all before, but it sounds defensive... as if people just assume they were working against a bias.
I think that to a great extent the future of Notes will be decided in the next few months. Microsoft is doing everything they can to kill it off and IBM/Lotus has done a lot to help them with bad management of the product. Hopefully the new version will be well received and there will be lots of products coming out for Notes/Domino. Unfortunately, past performance of IBM and Lotus with OS/2, 123, etc. does not make me optimistic. Notes/Domino has been vastly superior in many ways for years but has still been losing market share. The new versions of Exchange have gotten better with each version and Lotus has stalled until recently, with the Notes client being pretty much what we have had since R5 or before.
@11. I took a quick look. I don't think that reaction is odd at all. First, consider the framing of the question, given all that's gone on over the past few years.
Second, look at all the posts from people reckoning that apps that aren't web-based are dying (what a crock).
Finally, Jim Bernardo's post upped the ante, and immediately laid down the MS gauntlet (in a pretty poor way too).
@12 losing market share? Not recently. More on that next week.
"The new versions of Exchange have gotten better with each version..."
LOL. They had a lot of room for improvement. It's not hard to climb from zero.
@15: LOL!
Is it fair to say that Exchange is now 5 times better than it used to be? 5 * 0 = ... ;-)
It was an interesting question and one which either shows the authors lack of knowledge or tryignt o prove a point to a customer, either way hopefully we gave him food for thought.
The future of Notes is somewhat tightly coupled with the future of Eclipse.
I'm not sure how much the Notes community realizes this, but it is the Eclipse shell that breathes live into Lotus Notes. It's what makes composite applications a reality.
@18 - I think you'd find that the set of people likely to comment on Ed's blog are quite familiar with the relationship between Notes 8 and Eclipse. There's quite a mix of feelings about composite { Link } applications { Link }
I think Workplace (with javaScript as ofuscation tool for business logic) was heading in the wrong direction.
Notes 8 / Expeditor /Quickr / Connections etc. appears to be a much more solid foundation for new strategies. I found that members of the Lotus team participated in a constructive way in ongoing debates like that on the Captain Oblivious blog. For me a positive sign of confidence and energy.
LinkedIn doesn't seem to be alone, have you seen the ZDNET blog...
{ Link }
@21 - Well generally I take anything ZDNet posts with a 50lb bag of salt.
He isn't a "Notes fan" because of the "relatively high cost of maintaining the environment" - care to offer some proof to that?
Interesting discussion though.
Here is another question on LinkedIn related to Notes/Domino vs. SharePoint:
{ Link }
-- Grant
LOL...unbelievable...
Just for the record, what I posted on LinkedIn was entirely my opinion...I'm in LinkedIn with my current position information...I work at Microsoft, guys...did you expect me to pretend I was someone else?? If any of you (save Ed) actually KNEW me, you'd know I wouldn't ever do that. I also worked for ten years at Lotus, so I'm not a guy in a diner on the subject, or on technology in general, or on collaborative technologies, strategies, and directions in particular. Before you start, yes, I know much has changed since I left IBM, and I'm not in a position to know what IBM is doing, and so on...but I'm also someone who can watch what IBM DOES and draw conclusions...
As I asked in my answer on LinkedIn, where is all of the goodness of Notes in the rest of IBM's software portfolio? Where's the PKI? Where's the NSF? Where's the replication engine? Where's the Domino directory? If IBM values these technologies so highly, why have they been unable or unwilling to port them to WebSphere and DB2 and Tivoli? Why does Tivoli provide IBM’s directory services, and not Domino? Why is the Notes PKI not the PKI for all things in the IBM Software world? Notes 8 is nice, and because of Eclipse, it can access other stuff, and embed other apps in Notes...but Notes has ALWAYS been able to do that well. Where's the opposite? Where's the ability to express components of the Notes environment as objects in other apps? And NO I'm not talking about portlets...I'm talking about Notes as a collection of objects that can be expressed outside of the Notes environment. If IBM were doing that, I'd believe that they were serious about Notes. I completely believe that they are serious about WebSphere. I completely believe that they are serious about DB2. Everything I’ve seen IBM do in the R8 “wave” has been about snapping Notes on top of other stuff in IBM’s portfolio, not expressing Notes inside of those products.
Allan, was I FACTUALLY wrong in anything I said? If so, correct me! Don't throw stones because I pissed you off. As Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein, “follow the money.” Yes, in Notes 8, it sure looks like IBM has extended the life of Notes, but not by innovating Notes (aside from the Outlook UI in email), but rather by finding a way to snap Notes on top of what’s really strategic to IBM…
Because I responded on LinkedIn in no way, shape, or form represents "the competition" doing anything...nor, by the way, does my responding here...it amazes me how quickly and forcefully defensive you guys get when I say "boo"...
And oh, for the record, guys, that really crappy, completely worthless Exchange product you all love to so informedly trash owns, according to Gartner, about 2/3 of the corporate email market in organizations with greater than 500 PCs. Sorry, there just aren't that many stupid, uneducated, only politically-motivated companies in the world...and even if they were uneducated and politically motivated at the time they made the decision, ultimately, if the product (some reasonably current version, not Exchange 5.X, OK? – I wouldn’t ever compare Exchange 2007 to Notes R2, for example…it would be an uninformed comparison) couldn't stand on its own, its marketshare would be shrinking, not growing year over year, every single year.
"aside from the Outlook UI in email"
Eh?
Wow, Jim.
Have you considered less coffee in the morning? We're only "forcefully defensive" because you're spewing half-truths laced with vitriol.
Let's summarise your worst-case view of IBM's position:
IBM have many products which do the same thing, in areas like Directory Services, Database Engines, Web Servers, and others.
Their focus is on getting these products to inter-operate as seamlessly as possible, so that the customer has choice without pain. In the future, IBM may choose to ask customers to migrate to some technologies as they end-of-life older ones - but they will be offering more value and flexibility when they do it. This strategy is probably going to take decades, and as such nobody knows what the long-term future of any product is. (They do, however, know that Notes will have an R9 and an R10, and that it is a key part of this strategy.)
Now let's summarise the Microsoft strategy in the same way:
Microsoft have few products, which work in one way, and if you don't the way it works then tough. You have no choice, and they're not interested in giving you one - much less inter-operating with any other products, be they their own or someone else's, unless it looks like it locks you into their products.
Occasionally, Microsoft likes to end-of-life technologies without offering clear upgrade paths, and if you invested in those technologies then that's too bad - but you can always spend money on the new, incompatible, shinier technology. Until they end-of-life that one, too.
Microsoft's strategy does not span decades, and no commitment to future versions is forthcoming because, frankly, they've had enough difficulties delivering on the goals they set themselves for Windows NT 5.0 back in 1995. (When is WinFS arriving, by the way?)
So don't ask for a roadmap for their messaging and collaboration strategy, and especially don't believe that if you do get one they'll deliver on it.
Oh, and marketshare for Notes is also increasing, isn't it? IBM certainly seem to be selling seats. Doesn't that just indicate that a market we once thought was static actually has more growth potential?
Hi,
Iam working lotus notes as developer past 5 years.
In lotus notes application every body is facing performance problems. Lotus notes client application performance is very poor compare to web application in lotus notes.
Lot of companies migrated their existing work flow application to java or .net technologies. If company migrated their thiir work flow application to java obviously they migrate thier mail to oulook or some others. Becuase after R5 , we never get major release in terms of performance.
Now we heard that , IBM build the lotus notes in eclipse ,
i know lot of lotus notes developers already migrated to either java or .net application.
Becuase develpers dont want to loose their life becuase of IBM . I don't think lotus notes future release can anything in future. May be for mailing purpose notes will stay , but i dont think that for work flow and collabroation purpose notes will stay hear.
I think Ibm wants to promote DB2, websphere and mq series than Lotus notes.
Hey guys.....
I am working with lotus notes as developer past 4 years.
I am not so good for giving any comments in strategic plan of IBM in Lotus notes...
But till now I found future in lotus notes is very safe...
Most of big shots (Financial institutes as well FMCG) are using lotus notes.....
It they totally want to migrate form lotus notes then atleast it will take next 5 yesrs to go....
So we are safe next 5 years....And nobody knows the future of any technology....
I am happy as a lotus notes guy.....