Ed Brill

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1. 1  Flemming Riis  | 7/25/2006 9:11:44 AM

   -But the strength of Notes has always been that custom-developed app ability...

   and weakness , its amazing how fast you can create custom apps that can do just about anything you want , exept when 100 users does it and dont link between db's and you end up with a contact in 100 databases spelled different ways, its not domino's fault but its still fact of life many places

1. 2  Bob Balfe http://balfes.net/blog | 7/25/2006 9:13:38 AM

   We need to get better at this packaging persona we have with the public. Vowe has some interesting feedback on the Notes for Linux bundle and it looks like we just need to do a better job "packaging".

   Vowe reference: { Link }

1. 3  Olaf Boerner http://www.bcc.biz | 7/25/2006 9:25:31 AM

   IBM has done an execellen job confusing customers the last three years to convince to move to "open standard" plattform on Websphere.

   If companys will get of LN applications they will easily migrate to so called easy to use Outlook Clients (not Exchange!!!) Even Lotus IBMers do not really fight back to convince customers that LN is the superior email client.

   Two Suggestions for IBM:

   1. Provide valuable and sexy out of the box LN applications

   2. Communicate the low cost LN application development

   3. Communicate that LN is the leading LN Client

1. 4  Jens http://www.ligonet.ch | 7/25/2006 9:29:04 AM

   Bob is right, packaging is not always optimal. With Workplace IBM is gone already far into the right direction, but not yet at the level I would wish.

   But lets have a look at the other side: MS. Whats about their roadmap? I got my Action Pack upgrade in the last days. What was in it? Basically nothing: A SQL Server Service Pack, Office 07 Beta and Vista Beta. Seems they needed something to have the promised package sent out. For me that does not make the impression, that they are moving forward ...

1. 5  Simon Barratt http://apps.fmc.com/blog.nsf | 7/25/2006 9:34:32 AM

   'Customisation' has been a bad word at FMC for a long time now. In order to make progress, we learnt to use the word 'configuration' instead.

   Big difference in the minds eye!

1. 6  David DeWell http://workdomosphere.blogspot.como | 7/25/2006 9:39:32 AM

   Just because IBM does not provide hookers to CEOs and CIOs and anyone else, does not mean we should lose an account....

   Oh WAIT... that "in bed" comment has to do with they type of laziness that comes from complete incompetance by way of total ignorance. Oh yes, listen to one side, and just jump with your MS buddies.

   Wow - that MS MVP must be a good pimp too.

1. 7  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/25/2006 10:00:24 AM

   Setting aside the emotive aspect of all this, I don't buy the "shrink-wrapped is good" argument at all. Every application I've ever come across -- whether built in-house or purchased -- has had to be tweaked, customised, and generally buggered-about-with to meet what the users think they need (CIOs included).

   Whilst I appreciate that it's appealing to think one could use 100% off-the-shelf software in a organisation, in reality it just doesn't happen -- certainly not in businesses of 800 users or more.

   But hey, what do I know. Unlike your typical CIO, I have to actually *implement* all this stuff that users want and need on a day-to-day basis... Ahem. :o)

1. 8  Stephan H. Wissel http://www.wissel.net | 7/25/2006 10:21:38 AM

   There are a few streams coming together resulting in such a move:

   - Notes is sold as RAD environment but TechSupport wouldn't help if your mail template is customized

   - We had a nice application pack (in R3), where has it gone?

   - IBM sales reps talk a lot of portal these days, so customers get the impression they have to move, so they start evaluating other platforms. The message: it is just an upgrade is not clear.

   - There are tons of badly written applications (which did their ob then but look like ugly ducklings today) that need a makeover. IBM should buy Teamstudio and/or Ytria and have a maekover guideline (redbook) / contest

   My 2c

   :-) stw

1. 9  Danny Lawrence  | 7/25/2006 10:23:55 AM

   I'm probably biased, but didh't the CIO's "reasons" sound like "I've already made the decision now I have to come up with the justification"? At least they admitted that it wasn't for cost reasons "The move was proving pricey but would result in a more standardised and integrated environment". Riiight! Just as soon as the Exchanged store gets moved over to SQL server.

   @7 I agree with Ben in that ANY product will need soe tweaking to fit the organization (the alternative is that they fit the organization around the product, which does happen occasionally). The GOOD thing about Notes is that the tweaking can be done by the Notes Developers you have on staff, as opposed to MSFT Consultants.

1. 10  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/25/2006 10:29:45 AM

   Stephan: time to bring up the Nifty Fifty again!

1. 11  GarryL  | 7/25/2006 10:58:53 AM

   @3 @8 @ 10

   I had no idea what the 'nift fifty' was. A quick google later and it was some free apps out of the box. I am sure that many have thought that some good, free apps to get you going is sorely missing - look what you get with (the 'free' sharepoint services for download :-

   Absence and Vacation Schedule

   Board of Directors

   Case Work Management

   Change Management

   Classroom Management

   Competitive Intelligence

   Employee Activities Site

   Employee Timesheet and Scheduling

   Employee Training

   Event Coordination

   Expense Reimbursement

   Help Desk

   HR Programs and Services

   IT Developer Team Site

   Legal Document Review Workflow

   Loan Initiation Management

   Marketing Campaigns

   Meeting Management

   New Product Development

   Performance Review

   Professional Svcs Contracts

   Professional Svcs Site

   Project Team Site

   Public Official Activity

   Public Relations Work Site

   Publication Editorial Review

   Recruiting Resource Center

   Request for Proposal Management

   Room and Equipment Reservation

   Travel Request

   Now, regardless what you may personally think of these, they do look good, and it is out of the box. What you get with Notes is some good framework templates to work with, and a good Notes pro can get them working really smart. But thats development.

   Not to put down openntf, but really, a lot of the stuff in their could/should? be included out of the box as supported IBM apps?

   As for some apps looking tired I would agree. It may just add to the certain level of dislike for Notes as being 'dated'.

   I just think that some cool, out-of-the-box apps would be a huge plus.

1. 12  Maria Helm  | 7/25/2006 11:13:03 AM

   From the article (not the blog entry), it sounded to me like the CIO was driving the change because he wants to set up an environment where the vendors do the dirty work.

   I know "roadmap" is a hot button word for us, but when he spoke of roadmap, I think we can read between the lines thusly: "There's not a lot of roadmap (at my company) for Notes going forward," he said. "(because) We've started to move away from custom-written applications in Notes (because I don't like to support custom stuff) to more mainstream, shrink-wrapped products based on SQL."

   This insight is further supported by the comments:

   (1)Carmichael's approach to his infrastructure is to "keep it simple"..."

   (2)I build best of breed, out-of-the-box type stuff without getting too tricky."

   (3)"If I lose a staff member, I can walk out my front door and whistle, and I'll have a hundred guys applying ...

   I'm trying to be nice here, but what I sense is we have a CIO who wants to feel like he's 100% in control of his environment. So, his plan to do that is to (1)make vendors responsible for setting up the "tricky" stuff so that (2)they can be blamed when something doesn't work and made to fix it...and (3)be able to hire staff with few credentials (kind of implied in the 'have a hundred guys applying') who will know just enough to be able to do what he says and/or call the vendor when it breaks, and be easy to replace when they figure out what kind of boss he is.

   I don't see any argument for a business justification here other than because it will be easier for this CIO to manage - because he only has to call the vendor when something isn't working.

1. 13  Bill Geimer  | 7/25/2006 11:15:15 AM

   I think that IBM has gone a long way to update Notes and to spread its popularity. Hannover will help, when it gets here. But I am surprised at where IBM draws the line and stops.

   Case in point. Notes 7.0.1 on Linux is great. But Notes 7.0.1 limited to just RHEL is oddly limiting. Not Notes on Novell's SUSE. Not Notes on Fedora. But just Notes running as a plug-in to IBM Workplace running just on RHEL with certain levels of Mozilla and other requirements. Yes, I see it as a wonderful achievement, but in the details, its probably turned off quite a few others who see it as just too little.

1. 14  David Price  | 7/25/2006 11:39:55 AM

   @8 and @10. I have involved with a number of Exchange to Domino migrations. Lotus could make the transition easier by improving minor items, like a better web design, for team rooms, doc libraries, etc.

   Some Outlook/Exchange functionality does not map but Lotus should take the steps to address what they can.

   I recently had to tell a client that they could not print a single envelope from their PNAB (they can print labels). I understand that it is a MS limitation that prevents the PNAB from being accessible in MS Word but Lotus controls how printing works within Notes/PNAB. This issue was logged with support and is an enhancement request but that does not help the client today.

1. 15  Henning Heinz  | 7/25/2006 11:44:41 AM

   As long as simple things like simple html email rendering are broken there will always be customers migrating to Exchange. The OutofOffice agent will get fixed in Hannover but how long has this been broken?

   The winmail.dat (TNEF) thing gets fixed now but how long has this been an issue? Yes, it is a Microsoft issue but Microsofts answer has always been simple. Move to Outlook and it won't happen.

   Some of these moves are IBM business decisions. Those customers moving to Exchange probably did not ask for Web Services or DB/2 support and their demand has not been heard for many years.

   You want to sync your Windows Mobile. How bad for you, it will not work without a third party tool.

   A lot of things are getting adressed now, not as much as I would like to see and I am not as optimistic as many others here but at least something is happening.

   That is good.

   It has little to do with Exchange migrations but information about what is going to happen with Designer or the Domino server are far from what I would call a roadmap.

1. 16  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/25/2006 1:20:13 PM

   We invested in Notes and Domino precisely of the custom programmability. Out of the box templates never were a consideration for us, and I've honestly never done anything more than just create a database with each one to see what it looked like... and never looked at them again. I'm sure there are some uses for the templates, I've just not found any.

1. 17  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/25/2006 1:21:44 PM

   We invested in Notes and Domino precisely of the custom programmability. Out of the box templates never were a consideration for us, and I've honestly never done anything more than just create a database with each one to see what it looked like... and never looked at them again. I'm sure there are some uses for the templates, I've just not found any.

1. 18  Henning Heinz  | 7/25/2006 1:28:59 PM

   Sorry I forgot,

   for the template thing. IBM hired Steve Castledine, they are integrating his blog template stuff (that could also be used for half the stuff mentioned by GarryL in @11), the SAP integration is template based (sorry I did not look at it yet). It is not the Nifty Fifty but there is something happening in this area.

   For example the OpenNTF Help helpdesk application is excellent. It would be completely nonsense to redo the work just to have a template shipped with a release.

   Having said that I would hope that IBM and OpenNTF would find a more official (or if that already happens a more visible) way of cooperation.

1. 19  Dan Holzrichter  | 7/25/2006 2:15:46 PM

   @15 hit on the many of the main problems. HTML rendering in the Notes client is not good enough and never will be unless the mail client starts rendering HTML natively.

1. 20  Justin Ord  | 7/25/2006 3:06:31 PM

   In my personal opinion this is yet another prime example of the marketing monster and part time software development company MS yet again getting the better of another customer.

   We obviously don't have the all the facts and background leading to the decision, but surely IBM should start realizing that their marketing and sales strategy is not yielding the desired results?

   I speak rather passionately about migrations from superior to inferior software / technology's as I have unfortunately had to witness and partake in a couple of these exercises in a market that is dominated by MS.

   I am however sincerely hoping that Hannover will knock the socks off customers and open existing and potential Notes / Domino customers eyes to how much value Domino can add to their businesses.

   ...that's about 6c worth :)

1. 21  Bruce Elgort http://takingnotes.openntf.org | 7/25/2006 3:09:06 PM

   @Henning,

   "I would hope that IBM and OpenNTF would find a more official (or if that already happens a more visible) way of cooperation".

   It is what it is. I don't suspect you will see anything different in the future. OpenNTF thrives without any assistance from IBM. Yes we have asked for some cooperation in the past but, we are simply like any other Lotus business parnter.

1. 22  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 7/25/2006 3:42:17 PM

   @11. Heartily agree. Come on IBM - hire a bunch of template developers and offer a visually similar and functionally complete version of all the base sharepoint apps.. Just because it'd be far easier.

   And then of course have them as "open source". Oh - and have them import data from the Shareport repositories in a complete fashion. Seriously.

   Come on. You know it makes sense.

   ---* Bill

1. 23  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/25/2006 3:45:02 PM

   OpenNTF is a small entity. And IBM has no other way to deal with small things but by lumping them up into a "channel". There probably are quite a few people who understand how important OpenNTF is, but it is in nobody's job description to support it.

   To change this, you may need to set a sign. Close OpenNTF for 30 days. See what happens. :-)

1. 24  Bruce Elgort http://takingnotes.openntf.org | 7/25/2006 3:59:40 PM

   @Vowe,

   If I did that John Head would turn it right back on :-)

1. 25  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/25/2006 4:13:33 PM

   Who owns the domain and the DNS record?

1. 26  Bruce Elgort http://takingnotes.openntf.org | 7/25/2006 4:17:14 PM

   @Vowe,

   Good point :-) I do.

1. 27  R. J. Lesch  | 7/25/2006 4:51:39 PM

   @22: I agree and disagree. I've been converting some Sharepoint sites to Notes/Domino apps, and the whole time, I've been shaking my head and saying, "*this* is the competition?" It hasn't been hard to come up with something functionally superior in Domino, so OOTB templates mimicking Sharepoint apps might have some value.

   On the other hand:

   1. we'd all just customize them anyway, and as a result ...

   2. better stuff would be free on the web almost instantly.

1. 28  Ed Maloney  | 7/25/2006 4:59:43 PM

   @22 - Ditto for me - IBM desperately needs to ship some updated templates and at least a few of the Sharepoint type apps. I had requested this and was told that OpenNTF had already filled this need. As great as the OpenNTF apps are, they lack the visual appeal of the MS stuff. If IBM isn't interested in creating a new set of templates, perhaps they could provide some resources such as sponsered internships to contribute to OpenNTF.

1. 29  Ethann Castell http://www.caliton.com | 7/25/2006 5:01:13 PM

   @11. I agree that including "good looking" out of the box applications is a big plus for selling to CIO's. When they see HR programs, Marketing campaigns and so on, it gives the impressions that straight away they can add value to many different parts of there business. Ok, so the reality is going to be different but I think that sales is more about perception than reality.

   I wonder how many companies do evaluate Notes vs Exchange in a given year? I assume that most mid-size and large-size companies already have one or the other but I wonder how often they review the decision and more importantly, the criteria that has most influence on their decisions?

1. 30  Andy Steven http://www.cycle2max.com | 7/25/2006 5:27:28 PM

   I do a lot of work in Adelaide (Australia), about 1 million people.

   Because I work for a few of the main business partners I can tell you there has not been one new sale of Notes/Domino in the Adelaide market for over 4 years, woops sorry there were 2 five user sites setup.

   Even the IBM Staff here bag Notes, there are maybe 2 organisation pushing Notes, the rest are on the Exchange bandwagon.

   I've since left the Notes domain (regrettably) I am hoping Hannover will fix some of these things.

   I don't know what other areas are like, but over here ND are really losing the battle big time..

1. 31  Vince Schuurman http://blog.vinceschuurman.com | 7/25/2006 5:33:15 PM

   @28

   Allthough I don't agree that MS applications are more appealing visually than the OpenNTF templates (I know there is some great stuff there), I like the idea of internships (sponsored or not).

   This would not only increase the quality of the templates on OpenNTF, but might also increase the awareness of Lotus with students.

   @30

   ND is not losing the battle in the Netherlands, and from what I hear they are doing very nicely in most of Western Europe as well.

1. 32  Gerry Murphy  | 7/25/2006 7:17:22 PM

   11)Could not agree more.

   I am now working in a SME, 50 employees total, 6 staff.

   Putting in Notes/ Domino by stealth of course!!

   I have used a couple of the OpenNtf templates - terrific.

   However the "Out the Box" experience should be addressed NOW.

   Remember the 4.x stream that came with a "Collaboration Pack", I think it was called from memory.

   Where I then worked I was given the job to understand Notes and put in a system for 25 users.

   Having a number of decent, consistent templates to work with makes an enormous difference both for "Eye Candy" salesmanship at the Helicopter ( CIO) level and at the implementation level.

   The first thing I have done at each company is to create a cut down PAB for an "Company Contacts" database that everyone uses. To be a killer it needs to be brainless for the users, this means an " Add to Company Contacts" action at appropriate places in each users mail file.

   Sorry to go on so much. The comments keep coming back to a new "Nifty Fifty".

   Take the MS Sharepoint list - create IBM templates and put them in the box.

   Good profile / set up documents required, maybe a central repository database for setup items as used by some of the Quality Management systems that are on the market (ISOXPERT for example)or the system offered by developers here in Australia.

   Use them in the training courses as starting points for customisation.

   This will go a long way to deal with the perception that the initial learning curve is too steep.

   Gerry

1. 33  Karen  | 7/25/2006 7:53:18 PM

   @12 explains very well what I think might be going on where I work. It hasn't happened yet, but it feels exactly like she's described.

1. 34  Jason Reid http://www.jasonreid.net | 7/25/2006 9:37:43 PM

   I used to work at PKF years ago ( in fact was where i first learnt Notes admin & Dev)

   Even back then - PKF had some killer internal notes dbs, as one of the arms of the business (PKF Technology) was a Notes consulting group.

   One of the databases was an automated Workpapers generation db, which was used to generate all the documentation for the Auditors (PKF is a Chartered Accounting firm) to be used at a client site. These were either printed out, or input directly into an offline db at the client site.

   The system was quite clever, and would rollover the previous years work and financial figures, for the next years work, and would generate different workpapers based on configurable criteria such as Industry type, $ value thresholds etc.

   I think that they may have even sold it as a "product" to Solution 6 - a software accountancy maker

   SO - its pretty hard to see how switching to a "Products" based solution would EVER fulfil that need, seeing as the one they built internally was so good they ended up selling it to other people.

   I think definitely a victory of Marketing over substance.

   Maybe Lotus should partner with Google to offer a Gmail "Offline" client, which justs uses POP/IMAP to sync the email - i see a lot of "I use Outlook at home - and its much better than the Notes version we are using at work" (currently 4.6.7 *sigh*).

   Through chinese whispers this then gets passed on as - "The CEO said we need to go to Outlook"

1. 35  Andrew, Sydney  | 7/25/2006 9:40:29 PM

   Exchange will only run on one operating system - You are locked in.

   Domino runs on and integrates with many venders' operating systems – Not locked in.

   Post 12 rings a bell and I have seen other powerpaths act that way and unwittingly express their insecurity.

   PKF could be allowed to understand the reality once the current CIO moves on.

1. 36  Adam Osborne http://www.preemptive.com.au | 7/25/2006 11:03:19 PM

   This is a sickening trend in Australia. I think a lack of mind share over the last couple of years due to marketing cutbacks is coming home to roost. Bring back Fusion.

1. 37  Thomas Schulte  | 7/26/2006 2:04:26 AM

   Coming back to Openntf and Cool applications ...

   I also think that it would be an absolute benefit if there were some more applications packed within the delivery of domino/notes. And if all of them would share the same design standards.

   And it is funny what is said by a lot of people i meet who are really involved in delivering MS based solutions to their customers. What a lot of them tell me is that they see Microsoft giving base solutions for the nifty-fifty problems away for free and that they are seeing themselves only customizing these to the needs of their customers in a decade from now.

   Take a look at the Helpdesk over there at openntf. Why is this piece downloaded so often? Jesus there must be literally thousands of Helpdesks out there but the last version is near hitting the 5000 downloads mark. Making it to a total of nearly 15000 downloads for all versions.

   And it is NOT yet enabled for Web Use, and the documentation is lousy.

   So i think that IBM would benefit from overtaking some of those applications with their developers and integrate them into the delivery package. Well they did it with the blog template, didn't they?

   This would be good for at least one reason.

   Some of those applications are programmed with a different view towards things, for example delivering language based content and IBM could take more value out of looking at developing databases in a different style, than this move would cost them.

1. 38  Mike Brown  | 7/26/2006 2:29:36 AM

   @8 - "Notes is sold as RAD environment but TechSupport wouldn't help if your mail template is customized"

   It which case, all you need to do is keep one mailbox on an unmodified template. Whenever you get a problem, try and reproduce it on that mailbox and if you can, you report it to IBM/Lotus as a problem with the unmodified Lotus Template. What all your other users are running is irrelevant.

   If you can't reproduce the problem in the unmodified template, then it's very likely that it's something that you or one of your developers have altered. I don't see that it's IBM/Lotus's resposibility to pour through your code to see where you fouled it up.

1. 39  Ethann Castell http://www.caliton.com | 7/26/2006 2:40:26 AM

   Very interesting to hear from you other Aussies. I have felt as if Notes has been going backwards in Australia for a while. The user groups have pretty much all shut down and the general market seems a lot quieter. Does anyone have any information to counter this view?

   I think that many people would like to see the "nifty fifty" return. The consideration for IBM/Lotus is possibly cost. Not just the cost of developing the apps but the ongoing cost of supporting them and extending them as time goes by. Another consideration would be competing against existing business partner applications. I don't see that IBM could just bundle in some OpenNTF apps because I believe that many customers perceive reliability and security in IBM/Lotus-authored applications and don’t perceive these qualities in open source applications. Lotus could just commission some Business Partners to write some applications and bundle them with Notes. This could be an interim option but the apps would probably again fall into the category of samples/trial rather than full applications. Of course you then get into the "who owns the app" and "what happens if the BP goes bust" scenarios. But I think that bundling of applications, of some sort, will make Notes/Domino look a more attractive proposition.

1. 40  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 3:01:00 AM

   @39

   With regards the cost - MS are doing it as they see the 'candy pull' effect having benefits (and I am sure that some of these apps are indeed very useful). It is a perceived freebe, and if users want more, well you can upgrade to the full Sharepoint Portal server product, cant they.

   Competing against business partner apps? Again, MS do it, and seem to be doing very well out of it. Its all very well potentially protecting the partners product, but what use is that if businesses don't buy the actual Domino platform it runs on? Get some decent apps in there so you can run out of the box, and build on that. If they are really that worried, just buy the partner company out or licence it and get the products that way. Its not as if IBM are exactly strapped for cash.

   Regardless on what you think of them, MS really do make things easy to get going out of the box.

   And when I suggested that IBM offer some OpenNTF type apps, I wasn't really meaning they just take the templates from the site and add them into the product. What needs to happen is that they maybe take the type of application it is, and 'IBM it'.

   With reference to Bill's suggestion (@22) to build corresponding Notes/Domino apps to the sharepoint ones - great idea. Then we have the 'yes, we have them as well, and look at what else you can do...' scenario when selling to companies or indeed end users.

1. 41  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2006 3:51:13 AM

   @40 - "Its not as if IBM are exactly strapped for cash." I don't honestly even know what IBM's current cash position is, but that's for IBM as a whole. Each business runs to revenue and profitability targets, which I'm sure is no different than your business.

   Productizing Notes apps is no easy business -- just ask all the partners who do it! Multiple platforms (server and client), multiple languages (25+), multiple simultaneous supported releases, new releases coming almost every year. Also, IBM has been clear to state that it is not in the software applications business....sometimes that claim is admittedly a bit tenuous, but IBM at least strives not to create ISV/channel conflict (unlike THOSE guys, who borrow every good idea as their own...).

   All of these factors get multiplied even further in considering IBM's support of OpenNTF. How much legal review would be needed to ensure the code is all properly licensed and redistributable? How would translation/internationalization take place? Support? etc.

   MS may be shipping those sharepoint apps, but it remains to be seen how they are supported over the long term, how they get internationalized, etc.

   Let's make sure we look at the full scope of what you are asking before saying "IBM should buy 'em all and put 'em in the box".

1. 42  Pedro Quaresma  | 7/26/2006 4:01:17 AM

   @31:

   The (only?) exception in western europe might be Portugal. ND could use a boost there!

   Coincidence or not, I believe it's the only western european country that Ed hasn't visited yet ;)

1. 43  Matt  | 7/26/2006 4:49:53 AM

   It's by no means free, but these guys: { Link } have produced a fairly impressive template set with source code provided.

1. 44  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 4:50:31 AM

   Ed,

   You're misquoting me. What I said was that we need some full blown usable apps in the out-of-box-product, not buy everything and shove it in.

   I love this product. I want more to see the benefits of using it. The Uniqueness of it. The flexibility of it. The community behind it. The fact that there still is nothing like it in the marketplace today. Here I am replying to a post from the guy in charge of Worldwide sales for the product. How cool is that?

   Not everyone has a Notes developer on their team. I'm not asking, I'm telling you. You need things for businesses to work with out of the box. They need to be good-looking, intuitive, simple wizard driven grand showcases of the product. People need to see and say WOW.

   The figures may well say that things are going well on the licensing front. But how much better could they be –should they be- with some additional artillery. Kick some ass out there.

1. 45  Vitor Pereira  | 7/26/2006 5:10:44 AM

   @42:

   Yeah Ed, time to come to Portugal!

1. 46  Wild Bill http://www.billbuchan.com | 7/26/2006 5:42:53 AM

   @40 - Ed. We know IBM arent strapped for cash.

   What your hearing here - from your customers - is that there is a real requirement for more "out of the box" applications, all done to a professional look and feel standard.

   These apps would go a long way to re-establishing Notes as a credible alternative to Sharepoint.

   Compete with BP's ? Why not ask the BP's to create them for you ?

   Internationalisation and Support ? What support do we get on the existing Discussion template, etc ?

   Customisable ? Yes. Of course. This is the edge that Notes has over Sharepoint.

   So why not float the idea.

   Hell, IBM got Steve Castledine in with DomBlog. Does it compete with Blogsphere ? Hell, yes. But there's an example of an out-of-the box application that IBM *did* want to include.

   So the policy is there. We're just haggling over implementation and detail now.

   ---* Bill

1. 47  Lawrence Micallef http://www.lcem.com | 7/26/2006 6:52:28 AM

   Having just found out that Rand Merchant Bank { Link } are contemplating going Exchange, I was a little saddened.

   Their Domino based site (linked above) is a sterling example of how the business is using Notes/Domino to communicate well with their customers, partners and stakeholders.

   Unfortunately, pressure from the FirstRand group is bearing down on them and they are getting little to no support from IBM South Africa to stay on the Notes/Domino path.

   @20 - Justin will agree as he had to do some of the migration BACK to Exchange again after a migration OFF Exchange 2 years before....

   The biggest pain with Notes/Domino in the FirstRand group is the interoperability with Exchange - most notably Calendaring & Scheduling. It just does NOT work reliably for them to use the Calendaring as a business tool in the group. Repeating entries foul up most of the time, as do room bookings, delegation and appointment changes.

   Some of the issue is of course Microsoft making it less than easy to integrate a "foreign" system, but surely IBM could do more to help the far flung regions defend the existing customer base?

1. 48  Henning Heinz  | 7/26/2006 7:17:50 AM

   I would throw away every standard template for more flexibility and power in the application design. Yes, it is possible to provide a better look to notes applications but you loose some of the RAD capability. You trick with graphics to mimic a more recent UI design, you use custom icons, and change the default style of many design elements.

   Of course you can always have more templates but I am yet to meet a customer that tells me that he wants to migrate to Sharepoint because there are those tiny out-of-the-box apps.

   The NiftyFifty will not bring new customers and it probably will not prevent a customer from migrating to Exchange.

   For the cash and budget discussion. It is my personal opinion, but for an ever growing product with more than 100 Mio seats and increasing revelues I still have the impression that the services and offers provided by IBM have been significantly reduced over the years. Be it the stretched incremental upgrades period, the reduction of supported platforms, local IBM staff support dedicated for IBM Lotus, or the high number of "we have no plans to address this problem in the current release" in the IBM support database, the event list or the community offers on the site formerly known as notes.net.

   Again, things are better than a few years ago.

1. 49  Chris Whisonant http://cwhisonant.blogspot.com | 7/26/2006 7:25:48 AM

   @47 - A quick look at the Netcraft results for the Rand Merchant Bank link you posted shows that they may still be using Domino 5.0.8!! One of the servers is, at least.

   { Link }

   So, what's their reason to NOT upgrade - to even 6.0.x?!? Many of the calendar interoperability and other issues would likely be resolved. I think some BP there should be reading this and give them a call!

1. 50  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 7/26/2006 7:28:34 AM

   IBM has spent money (some with partners) to build templates for the Workplace Collaboration Services

   { Link }

   IBM obviously recognizes the value in templates, but the priorities are in different areas.

1. 51  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2006 8:24:00 AM

   @50 Carl, the term "template" has a different meaning for WCS and your link is to a demo, so you've compared apples and oranges without a lot of detail. I -certainly- object to the assertion that "priorities are in different areas" -- completely false logic to say that WCS templates were prioritized over Notes/Domino templates, because the assertion presupposes that such a prioritization could even take place.

   @46 Bill, you're right, the blogging piece in 7.0.2 is an exception... but just ask Steve what he's had to do to "blue rinse" it! Very expensive process start to finish.

   I'd rather do what I've wanted to at every new release (and was suggested elsewhere int this thread) and provide a sample application download area on ibm.com, allow partners to build versions of their apps for that catalog, and go from there. That's a win win, if I can ever get the organizational support behind it.

1. 52  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 7/26/2006 8:42:50 AM

   @51 Sorry Ed, I don't buy it. It's your company that is using the same term "template", for two products from the same vendor, surely they mean the same thing?

   I don't see why you believe they are apples and oranges. WCS offers templates that solve various different taskes, Domino offers templates that solve various different tasks. Some of those tasks solved by the WCS templates are the same as those solved by the Domino templates. A template is the starting block, you can use them out of the box as is, or you can extend and modify them. This is true for Domino templates and WCS templates. So what's your objection?

   I didn't post a link to every reference to WCS templates on the IBM site as to be honest I had better things to do, although a simple search will find plenty of references. The link I posted was the first one that came up in Google.

   "IBM obviously recognizes the value in templates, but the priorities are in different areas."

   This can be taken many ways, how about this

   IBM recognizes the value in templates, but for the upcoming release of Notes, IBMs priority is making the client easier to use with an extensible plugin architecture allowing for the creation of exciting and innovative composite applications.

   "the assertion presupposes that such a prioritization could even take place."

   This is true, you work at IBM and I don't, so I have no idea if IBM can set priorities.

1. 53  Declan Lynch http://www.qtzar.com | 7/26/2006 8:52:33 AM

   @51 Ed, partners want to make money, I can't see many partners creating version sof their apps for a software catalog unless they will be allowed put in nag screens, restrictions etc.

   What's needed is proper 'blue rinse' versions of applications that are free, fully working and open to customization by the licensed domino admin/developer. They should not contain any partner advertising.

   The new 'Innovations Pack' that is part of the 7.0.2 release is a great start to this and with a name like innovations pack then there is no reason why it can't be seperated out into it's own installer and added to over time.

   Make a list of all the 'shrink-wrapped' apps people might like to see, look at what's available ( even from OpenNTF ), blue rinse them and get them into the Innovations Pack.

1. 54  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 9:01:10 AM

1. 55  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2006 9:03:04 AM

   Sorry Declan, I probably wasn't clear - "version for a software catalog" meant stripped down in some way to present an upsell opportunity.

   Of course everyone would like to see more apps featured and shipped -- I'm just not sure that they'd like to see that over, as Carl points out, us spending time and resources making "hannover" the best Notes ever.

1. 56  Declan Lynch http://www.qtzar.com | 7/26/2006 9:17:56 AM

   Ed, to present an upsell opportunity means that the partners writing the apps need to include some details on 'getting the better version'. This is advertising.

   What's needed are plain 'blue rinsed' apps that do simple functions along the lines of the templates included in the sharepoint offering. Maybe IBM could commission some partners to create the apps after giving them the manual on blue rinsing.

   I don't see why IBM or selected partners couldn't put the effort into creating these domino templates, afterall isn't IBM saying that HANNOVER = NOTES and ALL YOUR APPLICATIONS WILL RUN, it's not like it would be wasted effort.

1. 57  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 9:21:56 AM

   @53 - Great idea! Ok, who wants what out of the box? I'll start with a four that we are looking at now:-

   1) An ITIL library app

   2) Help desk (yes, we are looking at OpenNTF!) app

   3) Project Management app

   4) Simple Sales/CRM app

   Going forward, couldn't this way of doing things provide a standardised set of apps way for partners to build upon and extend if they wished?

   @55 Useful yes, but you still need some functionality out of the box. And I do struggle to understand how a company with the size and resources of IBM (internal and external) couldn't make this happen if they considered it a must-do. How many developers are working on Hannover?

1. 58  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/26/2006 9:27:13 AM

   @57 "How many developers are working on Hannover?"

   More than any other Notes release.

1. 59  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 7/26/2006 9:45:19 AM

   @47, Sorry but the Rand web site, to me, is not a sterling example. To me it is an example of how not to do a domino website (though there are far worse ones out there).

   PwC ( { Link } ) would be a much better example of how to do it right.

1. 60  Tony Austin (of Asia/Pacific Computer Services) http://asiapac.com.au | 7/26/2006 9:49:50 AM

   Ed, the URL for "Lotus Notes needs the shrinkwrap treatment" is actually:

   { Link }

   You win some, you lose some! This year, I have been installing Notes/Domino 7.0.1 in a health service in in outback Australia. (And not for e-mail, but for wonderfully traditional Notes collaboration capabilities.)

1. 61  David Frahm  | 7/26/2006 10:09:03 AM

   openNTF could create a branded suite of its applications. All of which would adhere to the same (published) standards of visual design, coding, internationalization, documentation, etc.

   If they'd started out this way, it would be a lot easier now!

   But I'm sure they won't because Notes developers are mostly mavericks who want to do everything their way. I know most developers in general are like that, but expecially Notes because standards have never been part of their experience.

1. 62  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 10:10:48 AM

   @61 Owch!

1. 63  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/26/2006 10:34:04 AM

   @61: OpenNTF could indeed do that -- you're volunteering to manage it all are you David? Come up with the standards, document them, police them? Personally, I would be all for it. But I also recognise that OpenNTF is run and contributed-to by volunteers. Whatever time and effort people feel they can give is all good.

   In point of fact, it never ceases to amaze me how rude people are about FREE SERVICES AND FREE APPLICATIONS -- my inbox is daily testament to this "gimme gimme" attitude, and I sometimes wonder why we bother contributing code and applications at all.

   I don't blame IBM for not wanting to take on the burden of more templates.

1. 64  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 10:41:14 AM

   @63 "burden of more templates"

   Don’t you mean 'increased rich functionality out of the box"? Seriously though, there’s a huge gulf between a global corporation like IBM and a group of busy but dedicated developers. I think the level of posts to this blog suggests there is some real feeling that IBM should doing something more about this.

   With regards to the rest of your post, I don't blame you for the tone! I'm sitting here with my combat helmet on waiting for the next barrage!

1. 65  David Frahm  | 7/26/2006 10:50:51 AM

   @63: There might be some way to make money from it, separate from the free stuff. Even if it is free, that doesn't mean that the people working on it, particularly those overseeing/leading it at openNTF couldn't be paid by other companies. Aren't there IBMrs getting paid to work on Apache open source projects, which IBM then uses as the basis for their (non-free) products?

   And I would be willing to contribute in some manner. I've managed standards and its hard but not impossible. Even the kicking-and-screaming developers usually end up saying "This is so much easier now" when you get things going.

1. 66  David Frahm  | 7/26/2006 11:13:42 AM

   @64: My first post was not intended to be a slam against openNTF. Or anybody else for that matter. My apologies to anyone who took it that way. I have an openNTF project and I think its a great service to the Notes community.

   Even the Notes devs that scoff at standards are not completely to blame... Its really just the same old story of how Notes suffers from something that made it so successful.

   Ed, is this something that gets discussed at IBM? Was the addition of Java and now eclipse partly intended to bring about a higher level of developer skills?

1. 67  John Head http://www.johndavidhead.com | 7/26/2006 11:52:15 AM

   I think that one thing that everyone is forgetting is the difference between an application on OpenNTF and something that comes in the box. On OpenNTF, there is no statement of quality or testing. Yes, people fix bugs and all that. But people do not test a template on every version of Notes & Domino (OS, Server platform, language). IBM has to do testing on all the platforms. They also have to do the language conversion.

   Now, I am a huge supporter of OpenNTF and folks like Steve Castledine before he joined IBM (PSC does host OpenNTF for free), but its not apples to oranges.

   Would OpenNTF developers be willing to stick to the blue rinse UI guildlines that Steve had to convert dominoblog to? I am not sure.

   This does not even cover the legal issues ... if IBM puts an OpenNTF app in the box, or even something built for free by partners, IBM still has risk of being the target for a legal fight if something goes wrong.

   I remember the Nifty 50 very well. They were great 'see, this is what Notes can do' before LotusScript was added to Notes in 4.0. I also remember the Business Partner forum and L-NotesL email list talking about how no one used them in the real world ... there was always changes and tweaking. There was also a Business Partner contest where applications were built on 4.X. The winners won a Satelite for the TEN broadcast of the old LotusVision broadcasts. I know because I wrote one of the apps that won ... and Artron got the satelit. Its been a while, but I never heard of anyone using those apps in the real world.

   Would another Nifty 50 bring more customers to Notes? Not sure. Would OpenNTF having a matching app for all the Sharepoint apps help? To some extent yes. I think IBM is better of focusing on "> 7.9.9 | < 8.0.1" then on these. If everyone in this thread took one of those apps, built a first version, got it on OpenNTF in the next week, and we all starting collaborating on testing, comments, and translations, then this might turn into somethinig. I will even committ to the "Legal Document Review Workflow" one ... anyone else?

1. 68  Phil  | 7/26/2006 12:11:10 PM

   @30 I'm in the Channel Islands, UK and it's much the same here albeit on a much smaller scale (pop:150000 or so).

   The local IT companies actively push their clients onto exchange because they:

   a) don't have notes skills

   b) do have MS skills and know that they'll be able to find staff to support it

   and that included my ex-business partners. >:-(

   @57 That list plus a solid workflow mechanism that can be used by SMB's would be nice.

   Tools that we can reasonably expect to work out-of-the-box and not have to bug-fix ourselves so we can concentrate on solving the business process problem that Accounts/HR/customer support/whatever just handed us.

   OpenNTF is great at that but IBM should have done it themselves already.

   @58 Excellent! Don't let them get away once the project is made gold. ;-)

   Also work on the integration with other products the SAP integration is a great step, don't stop there.

   Get the synchronisation with PDAs/mobiles working properly. CEO's like their toys and it's difficult to argue against the "but I don't have to buy anything else to make it work with outlook".

   Sort out the issues with synching repeating dates in the calendar (or lean on the suppliers to put some effort in to doing so)

   this is starting to sound a bit like a rant and it isn't meant to be so I'll stop there. We all want domino to be on top and everyone here is trying to think of things that will help with that even if it sounds like we're being harsh.

1. 69  Bruce Elgort http://www.TakingNotesPodcast.com | 7/26/2006 12:26:18 PM

   Traffic is at least up:

   { Link }

1. 70  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 7/26/2006 1:35:41 PM

   @67 the key thing that the nifty fifty gave people John, was out of the box apps that could be demonstrated.

   Lotus folks who were effective at selling Notes into companies would do a few things with those Nifty Fifty apps, a couple of simple things they'd do would be to add the company logo, and use names of the people they were presenting too. This would get an association going in the potential customers head of ah, this app would suit our company.

   Business Partners often used them as a starting block too, they could demonstrate a prototype in a few hours versus a few days.

   I'm sure John, that being the smart person I know you are, you probably use a number of home grown templates that you have built up over the years, that you tweak depending upon your audience.

   Legal issues can obviously be figure out, and with the right wording sample code can be delivered. Sametime 7.5 is going to include some untested sample plugins, that aren't in 23 languages, but IBM managed to figure out hte legal wording to protect themselves.

   As pointed out before, IBM has managed to build templates for other products so there are obviously some legal folks there that can work it out.

1. 71  Justin Ord  | 7/26/2006 3:19:18 PM

   @49 - RMB is currently running 6.5.5 FP1 on their primary mail and application servers. The vast majority of the servers are also on 6.5.x, there is only one server left on R5 which will be decommissioned very soon.

   According to RMB some of the repeating meeting entry issues can also be recreated on R 7.0.1 FP1

1. 72  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/26/2006 4:35:37 PM

   @67: "Would OpenNTF developers be willing to stick to the blue rinse UI guildlines that Steve had to convert dominoblog to? I am not sure."

   I KNOW they won't be willing... why would they? I'm sure Steve had to do a hell of a lot to blue rinse Dominoblog... but then of course he's an IBM employee, and that's what he is contracted to do. There's no such impetus for those with projects on OpenNTF.

   @David: forgive my somewhat inflammatory tone, but the whole open source thing gets me riled up. I get emails almost every day from people demanding links to my project, demanding the next version, demanding more documentation... this frigging laziness drives me up the wall, and I lashed out. My apologies :o)

1. 73  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 7/26/2006 4:59:16 PM

   Sheesh! 71 comments?

   My thoughts on various threads:

   Re the The talk about out of the box apps vs customized: Any Company that can afford it wants to have apps that do things their way. If you only use apps out of the box, external vendors are deciding how you do business. If your competitors do the same, where's the edge?

   I can almost guarantee that the CIO is not consulting his IT staff on this decision. We should really have swat teams that followup with orgs like these a year later, to see if the promise has been fulfilled, and offer them services to get things back to where they were befor ehtrey started digging a big hole in their weekens and their budget....

   As for the Sharepoint apps - hilarious. I particularly like the "Board of Directors" out of the box app. Sure, they're going to use that...

   And why are we comparing Notes directly to Sharepoint? MS must love it when they get to define the argument like that. Notes replaces a BIG suite of apps, of which Sharepoint is one. Kind of like saying that a Ford Focus is a better car than a Ferrari, because it had more cargo space and gets better gas mileage....

1. 74  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 5:01:48 PM

   @73 "Notes replaces a BIG suite of apps, of which Sharepoint is one"

   YOU might know that. I might know that. But we're in know then arn't we?

   We are not the ones needing convincing.

1. 75  Bruce Elgort http://takingnotes.openntf.org | 7/26/2006 5:02:39 PM

   @Ben,

   Where is V1.1 :-) Just kidding.

1. 76  Ethann Castell http://www.caliton.com | 7/26/2006 5:55:39 PM

   I think that most people would like to see out-of-the-box apps with Notes/Domino and I'm sure that IBM would do it if there were minimal costs involved. But the cost for IBM to produce custom apps would not be insignificant, and may be difficult to justify on a cost/benefit basis. Sure there are some people who may buy Notes because of it but when you look at the dollars and cents it has to add up. You have to consider that these apps will need to be rigorously tested and work across all platforms, not just Windows, and that equates to a big job.

   I like the OpenNTF idea and the BP idea but at the end of the day I believe that many customers want the apps to be IBM branded so that if something goes wrong then they have some-one to point the finger at. Also if a suite of apps came from IBM I would ideally like them to share design, design elements and code. This would be difficult to achieve with OpenNTF or BP's.

1. 77  Brian Benz http://www.softwaresoapbox.com | 7/26/2006 6:53:56 PM

   @75 - Which apps should be out-of-the-box and which should not?

1. 78  GarryL  | 7/26/2006 7:12:28 PM

   @77 "Which apps should be out-of-the-box and which should not?"

   I suggested 4, and another post suggested a workflow mechanism. Anyone else is clearly free to suggest...

   And thinking about your post @73 again "why are we comparing Notes directly to Sharepoint?"

   Why are all the licence stats pitting Notes against Exchange when Notes is much, much more? Isn't that also covered by your argument? What should be compared? Isn't it just a fact that to many people Notes = mail = Outlook competitor with a client that looks, to put it politely, quirky and funny looking compared to the slick looking MS alternative?

   Hence we get back to earlier posts - get some WOW apps out of the box and actually show off, very very quickly, why Notes is such an awesome product.

1. 79  John Ryan http://www.dlitools.com | 7/27/2006 12:22:37 AM

   First, I just want to say I am a complete Lotus Notes and Domino fan. We develop some of the best products for Lotus Notes and Domino. There is no question in my mind that Lotus Notes and Domino overall offers a solution unparalleled by any other software. But I am going to make some comments which I feel are true.

   I don't blame the CIO from PKF.

   In the last few years, IBM has obliterated the Lotus Notes and Domino message. Anyone who had Notes and Domino was and is now often unsure and in doubt of the direction of Notes. Sure, IBM has a roadmap, but it is confusing. It's like IBM is creating a whole new Java application…and trying to tell everyone it's Notes…when it's not. In the meantime, the effort and attention to Lotus Notes and Domino "proper" has gone by the wayside. Over the same last few years, Microsoft floundered. Nothing really new or exciting was coming out of them. IBM lost a huge opportunity to capture more customers. All that was needed was better marketing and a change in the "look and feel" of Notes.

   Visualize three roads. On the left it was Microsoft...mostly about personal productivity and the desktop. In the middle was Lotus, workgroup computing, "the three Cs", communication, collaboration, coordination. People were "getting it" and it made great strides. On the right was/is IBM, big, centralized mainframe relational computing environments.

   Now, we know IBM was in the desktop space, what with PC DOS, OS2, MicroChannel, Token Ring, PCs, Notebooks. Please note where all these are today. Gone. This was the initial fear with the Notes/Domino community when IBM purchased Lotus Notes/Domino. It didn't happen...as IBM seemed to leave Notes and Domino alone, there was growth, however, when Jeff Papows "left the room" (he did a good job regardless of his history) and verteran IBMers took to the helm, things started to change...there is no disputing that.

   Visualize the three roads again. Now, IBM seems to be moving Lotus to the road on the right under a Java guise. Microsoft seems to be moving into the middle...they made a statement that perhaps personal productivity wasn't the end-all be-all...and hired Ray Ozzie. Is SharePoint the new Notes? A lot of people are asking that question. Why? I don't know, there isn't much sense to it exactly, but it is happening. Go and have a look at Microsoft's marketing for SharePoint...deja vous or what? Swap out the logos and the product and you have Notes and Domino circa 1994.

   IBM has totally confused the message over the last few years. It doesn't matter if Mike Rhodin steps up to a microphone at Lotusphere and announces that Notes is not going away in clear and concise words. The next things that were demonstrated after he talked were not Lotus Notes/Domino. People at the conference where calling it Websphere...not Lotusphere. The fact is that the solution that companies are seeing come out of IBM is a java solution. An IBM salesperson does not walk into a company and try to sell them toward Notes and Domino anymore (ok...let me specify..not as many salespeople), they try to sell them Workplace or Portal. If you go to the Lotus part of IBMs website, Notes and Domino are lumped together with Workplace and Portal. People are confused. "What, now I have to upgrade Notes and Domino and Workplace? And my Notes/Domino developers now have to be Java developers and I need things like DB2 and new servers? Gee, with eForms too, are we creating Notes and Domino apps now, or java and Eforms apps? Aren't Eforms similar to Notes forms? Isn't Workplace and WSE like Notes and Domino and what it already offers? Does this mean we are moving to java? Hmm, it's all running on Windows 2003 servers."

   What are companies supposed to think? They were just realizing what groupware computing was.

   For years, the Notes and Domino cummunity has been asking, no, begging IBM to do better at marketing. It never came. Why are their comparisons between Notes and Exchange and now Notes and Sharepoint...ya, it shouldn't be like that...but it is. IBM could stop it, but, it does not.

   The Notes and Domino community has been asking, no, begging IBM to just change the interface. Make the mail look better. Make it so forms development was "pixel perfect"...not the line by line presentation it is today. Let developers create things like "real" dialog boxes...so that applications could look like real Windows applications. Let users launch Notes applications from an icon on their desktop so that they don't have to open the Workspace...and so on.

   Over the last few years...all IBM had to do was improve the look and feel of Domino and they would have captured more marketshare while MS floundered. If you took all that version 7 is today and just made it "look" better...then that would be huge. If Hannover is an interface improvement...but it is java client...IBM will have missed the point again. So little is needed to improve the current Notes Windows client in comparison to the work they are doing right now.

   Well, I understand why IBM has taken some of the direction that it has. It makes sense for them when considering the nature of their other software offerings. The problem is that it doesn't make sense for Notes and Domino and the companies that use Notes and Domino.

   So, again, I don't blame the CIO from PKF. He is confused. He is uncertain about the future of Notes and Domino...IBM fuelled that doubt.

   All of us Notes/Domino believers take it on the chin. We watch Notes/Domino lose marketshare while it remains as the number one software product sold by IBM. Imagine if IBM just did the few things we ask.

1. 80  Rob  | 7/27/2006 1:12:36 AM

   5 to 10 years ago Lotus had great marketing in Australia. You guys even had a website that you could find Lotus information on - now it's buried so far deep amongst whatever else IBM seems to want to sell. Fusion conference was a great way to get the message out. If you won't invest in that sort of marketing then don't be surprised when Microsoft sneek up with a near enough is good enough solution like Sharepoint 2007. You'll need to go point to point against this product to survive.

1. 81  Justin Ord  | 7/27/2006 1:13:18 AM

   @79 - John, as much as I hate to admit it, you are echoing the sentiments of numerous customers in the South African market with “pin point” accuracy and as much as it saddens me to say this, I am glad to see that we are not the only market undergoing the same pains.

1. 82  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 3:30:02 AM

   @79 Well said that man.

   "all IBM had to do was improve the look and feel of Domino and they would have captured more market share while MS floundered"

   How many, many people have said that. A kick-butt looking client could, I am sure, have saved many a Lotus site from changing in addition to offering a modern alternative to Outlook.

   "Aren't Eforms similar to Notes forms?"

   I am completely confused as to when you would need this as a Notes house. Would you or wouldn’t you?

   "For years, the Notes and Domino community has been asking, no, begging IBM to do better at marketing."

   Yep. All I ever tend to hear in press and articles is Sharepoint this, integrates with Outlook that etc etc.

   "So little is needed to improve the current Notes Windows client in comparison to the work they are doing right now"

   Hannover is such a monumental looking change, and it looks impressive so far. But I do not see why, over time, you couldn't have improved the look and feel - modern looking icons, skinnable UI etc. It just looks like it's stood still over time. When this is mentioned we normally get the 'new client = training costs' argument. Well, Hannover will have a current looking client in addition to the new one - why could that not have happened some time ago?

   Sharepoint 2007 is looking good. It has good functionality out of the box. Out...of....the...box..

   We all know that to get the potential that Notes has would take several products from the Microsoft stack, but then again, the Microsoft stack just works out of the box. You do not need to have a developer in to get going with functionality. Its good looking, clean and is good enough for the majority of users.

   What we need, out of the box, is working apps that do exactly what all the other competing Microsoft products do, out of the box. That, combined with a modern front end (Hannover), should get companies looking at Lotus again.

   Is it maybe the case that many people from here are from an SME type environment, where MS excels, and that IBM is looking from a large Enterprise level where things may be more rosy?

   From where I am standing, things ain't great in happyland.

   Frustrating, isn't it?

1. 83  victor mascari http://www.tpas.biz | 7/27/2006 4:08:07 AM

   @79 " An IBM salesperson does not walk into a company and try to sell them toward Notes and Domino anymore (ok...let me specify..not as many salespeople), they try to sell them Workplace or Portal."

   Bingo! That is the problem. All the technical stuff above matters little if the sales guys are not behind the product.

   I just had this happen to a client last week. IBM sales took our client's VP (of IT) to lunch. The VP told the IBM salespeople that they were going to stop using IBM MQ Workflow and replace it with a Domino workflow solution and Domino portal solution.

   Their response? Don't use Domino! Use Workplace! Followed by a lot of FUD against Notes which got the VP worried.

   Luckily, IBM has lost much of its influence due to their previous recommendations that the company actually followed and ended up bleeding money left and right. But, there was still some FUD left over, and we addressed it immediately and we are back on track for now...until IBM visits again...

1. 84  Nathan T. Freeman http://www.openntf.org/nathan/escape.nsf | 7/27/2006 4:34:43 AM

   "Would OpenNTF developers be willing to stick to the blue rinse UI guildlines that Steve had to convert dominoblog to? I am not sure."

   Based on what I've seen from the results, no. But that's mostly because the UI guidelines aren't very good.

   Now, if IBM was willing to make those standards a collaborative process instead of static guidelines, then we might be able to talk.

   @79, @81, @82 - I'm in the South African market (Jo'burg) and I'm the co-founder of OpenNTF.org. Yes, IBM SA sucks at handling Notes/Domino business. The Lotusphere comes to you event was laughable -- it felt like 2003 all over again. IBM hasn't dedicated resources into the SA market that understand the Lotus line-up AT ALL.

   But you know what? I don't really blame them. South Africa has MUCH deeper issues to sort out than how best to leverage collaboration software. I mean, the consumer division of FirstRand CHARGES CUSTOMERS TO MAKE DEPOSITS! I'm fairly sure stuff like that disqualifies them as a trendsetter outside SA.

1. 85  Peter Smith  | 7/27/2006 4:36:31 AM

   We have many SMB/E customers in the UK, and there is a definite trend for the smaller firms to go to Exchange. Why? - direct comparison of the look/feel of the Notes client to Outlook.

   On Monday I was on a Domino site that recently went through a merger with an Exchange shop. Technical arguments prevailed and Domino became the common mail system (6.5.4).

   But they are already anticipating a return to Exchange because of a lack of enthusiam over the Notes UI. As with a lot of these situations the bulk of users don't really mind what they use, but a small group of power users are pro MS, and use the UI as a stick to beat down the Domino advocates.

   They were very keen on seeing R7 but disappointed that essentially the client looks the same. They are hoping to ride the storm till Hannover, but in the meantime what they need is to show extra value by using their Domino system for something in addition to mail.

   But therein lies the problem - small company, small IT team, no dedicated Notes Admin/Developers, so no resource to create apps to add value. A set of standard templates (helpdesk, holidays, sickness, asset tracking etc..) would allow them quick wins (even if they need tweaking later), to prove Domino is more than a mail server and therefore not a straight swap with Exchange.

1. 86  Henning Heinz  | 7/27/2006 4:42:09 AM

   John, a good and lengthy comment but not true in all points from my opinion.

   First for Papows thing. Nearly everbody liked Papows as he was a very charismatic guy that did a good show. But I have not forgotton what I got with ( the way too late) Notes5. The bug that Notes crashed if you scroll too fast in the mailfile with an open preview pane has been fixed in 5.0.4 I think. As great as it was for the UI enhancements it really drove me nuts for all the bugs. You want viruses for Notes, a @SetTargetFrame command at the right place was mostly enough to crash the client.

   And for the client. When it was all Lotus the client was very functional (as it is today) but not pretty. Even when Ozzie reigned at Lotus it was not IBM that made a stellar looking client an ugly pig but it has always been, at least different.

   For the Java thing. First, most of what you are critizising is choice. Choice can be irritating but in general it is not a bad thing. There are people who want to do more Java, there are people who want a Linux client. There even are people that care nothing about a window(s) behaviour because they have chosen another platform. Big IBM shops love Java because it plays well with everything else that IBM is selling, be it hardware of software.

   And if you say that Java is not a good road you have to tell about the alternatives. Maintain the C++ version until Microsoft finally puts it EOL?

   Many people complaign that IBM is not selling Notes outside of Lotus. Maybe this is true, maybe not. I really do not care that much because the Notes business is all driven by partners. But if you want that more people at IBM support Notes then maybe it has to embrace more of IBMs favoured technology like DB/2, Eclipse, Websphere and finally Java.

   I think it is good to remember IBM from time to time that they already have a big fish with Websphere and that for Notes and Domino probably things have to be way smarter (there are already people that call Domino bloated) but I do not think it makes sense to do it completely different (that would have pulled the plug years ago).

   I very well remember the interview where the head of software business made clear that IBM has a vision for software and I am not sure if it is wise as an IBM person to speak against Mr. Mills.

   And compared by revenues from what I know Lotus Notes and Domino are not the number one software products sold by IBM (maybe for the infamous seat count).

   The UI discussion is over anyway. IBM is already committed for a better look. Of course it can be considered late and not everyone will like it but it is coming. They even preserve the good old workspace for dinosaurs like me. I am very thankful that there are habits that I do not have to change because a vendor thinks he knows better than me how to be productive. The new UI is coming in 2007. Every company that is considering moving to Exchange or Sharepoint should be able to wait for Hannover. Every tech IT can help with the screenshots and features that are already available. Especially the first ones that have not been trimmed for the real world are quite impressive. Microsoft does not do it differently. They take the best UI shots for Vista that propably only the newest hardware will be able to render in a usable manner and sell it as the next version of computing while for the majority, the reduced classic look will be the standard.

   @Justin

   If have stoppped recommending Notes for new customers years ago as I do not feel strong enough to get around all the current limitations it currently has (I have a run my own business company) but the majority of my work is still Notes business for customers using Notes every day and most of them are quite happy with what they have (some are even so happy that they are doing more with Notes than I would recommend). But I am in stealth mode. If the UI and usability improvements are coming I can still become wealthy. Because even after all these years that IBM owns Notes (irony here please), "So little is needed to improve the current Notes" (slightly adopted).

1. 87  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 5:26:48 AM

   @85 Great post!

   "Why? - direct comparison of the look/feel of the Notes client to Outlook"

   110% right. Completely.

   "They were very keen on seeing R7 but disappointed that essentially the client looks the same."

   Disappointed? I was absolutely gutted.

   "in the meantime what they need is to show extra value by using their Domino system for something in addition to mail.

   But therein lies the problem - small company, small IT team, no dedicated Notes Admin/Developers, so no resource to create apps to add value. A set of standard templates (helpdesk, holidays, sickness, asset tracking etc..) would allow them quick wins (even if they need tweaking later), to prove Domino is more than a mail server and therefore not a straight swap with Exchange.

   Exactly, exactly, exactly. Because of the UI you need something else that people can benefit from. And it does-not-come-out-of-the-box.

   Unfortunately, in the above scenario, Exchange/Outlook and even sharepoint services with some templates (and they now have document management and team rooms templates) would be a much quicker implementation and a much slicker experience for the end user.

   Would anyone else agree, that at SME level, Notes is severely getting its butt kicked by Exchange? Reasons? UI and immediate functionality?

1. 88  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 5:32:48 AM

1. 89  Nathan T. Freeman http://www.openntf.org/nathan/escape.nsf | 7/27/2006 5:39:23 AM

   "But therein lies the problem - small company, small IT team, no dedicated Notes Admin/Developers, so no resource to create apps to add value. A set of standard templates (helpdesk, holidays, sickness, asset tracking etc..) would allow them quick wins (even if they need tweaking later), to prove Domino is more than a mail server and therefore not a straight swap with Exchange."

   { Link }

   It's only on this thread about 400 times. *eye roll*

1. 90  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 5:41:05 AM

   @86 Interesting comments

   "But if you want that more people at IBM support Notes then maybe it has to embrace more of IBMs favoured technology like DB/2, Eclipse, Websphere and finally Java."

   So, you're saying it has to incorporate all of these, then maybe we'll get more of an interest internally from IBM? Hmmm....

   "there are already people that call Domino bloated"

   Have you actually seen the specs and tried to run something like Workplace Services Express? Much, much higher than anything Domino would need.

   "The UI discussion is over anyway"

   Not many of us have used it in the flesh - we are all hopeful but how on earth do we know its going to work as well as it looks? The point being made by many past and present is that the client is the main reason why Notes isn't on more desktops

1. 91  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 5:43:56 AM

   @89.

   Yep. Maybe if we keep on about it, something will happen.

1. 92  Peter Smith  | 7/27/2006 6:31:06 AM

   @89... I know I know.

   But there is a difference between having a set of ready to go templates delivered as part of the install (which will run with Lotus signing - this is not an invitation to start a dbsigning debate!), and "downloading freebies from the web". NB - I'm not disparaging openntf, and have used apps from there myself, but for SMB it's all around ease of use and "ready to go".

1. 93  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/27/2006 6:36:43 AM

   @79 John,

   Thanks for taking the time to write what is obviously a heartfelt and passionate response.

   The only problem is that it could have been accurate two years ago, but things have changed. If you as a partner who have written "some of the best products" haven't kept up with the message, apply an extra bent of cynicism, and don't trust IBM executives, then we have a problem. I don't expect you to believe everything we are saying, but come on, bringing up PC DOS? What's the relevance of that?

   Your comment deserves a response, and if I wasn't on vacation, I'd give you a call to discuss. I'll write a new posting in the next day or so to respond to it. I am not sure we'll necessarily agree on all of it, but mostly what I want is for you to stop spreading FUD, intentionally or otherwise, when shipping code, IBM financials, and many other data points disprove many of your assertions. Today.

1. 94  Henning Heinz  | 7/27/2006 7:03:52 AM

   @Garry,

   If you think of incorporating as replacing then no but indeed I think it is important that Domino can leverage DB/2 and that you can integrate it with Websphere. Not for me, not for my customers but maybe for others (or if for IBM Global Services only so be it).

   Of course, I know Workplace Services Express. It does not work for me, maybe for others. But if Workplace Services Express would be an elegant piece of software consuming little resources would that be good or bad for the future of Notes and Domino?

   I think it is good if some nice white papers get a reality check. It is a very honest way of doing business and if a customer prefers a big iron solution so be it.

   I have not used the UI either but with my "over anyway" statement I tried to emphasize that IBM already promised to do something about it.

1. 95  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 7:24:20 AM

   @Henning

   I would agree that the flexibility of Notes/Domino is a prime asset. I would be concerned if it was going to get swamped by lots of other products into a niche.

   We looked at WSE, and were rather flat about it. What we did like was the Rich Client, which wasn't available for Express. Hannover appears to absorbed at least some of the functionality that was in there, however.

   When Workplace generally came out there was obviously the confused messages for some time that this was the future (I think that’s maybe still causing effects to this day). When you actually got your hands on the product it clearly wasn't a similar beast. Would it have been better or worse for Domino? Priced right it could have been a good match. Bit of a shame they were effectively competing against each other.

   IBM is indeed doing something about the UI. At last! I just find it very very hard not to look back and wonder what things would be like now if only the refresh had come earlier.

1. 96  David Frahm  | 7/27/2006 8:30:41 AM

   So its a fact that Hannover is coming and with it a new UI. I am concerned however that IBM doesn't understand that is only step 1 of many.

   Its great that Hannover will look awesome. And its great that a R1 app will still run perfectly. The problem is that all the old apps will LOOK OLD. That needs to be addressed.

   Are they going to publish documented standards for these new applications? Are they going to give us tools to create new Notes apps that follow these standards? How about tools to "upgrade" existing Notes applications?

   Customers need to be able to create new Hannover-looking apps, and upgrade old apps. However, because Notes is so decentralized in architecture, upgrading the look and feel of an app is maddening. So I'm concerned that it won't get done and everything except Mail will look old. That is not a very complete solution, in my opinion.

   I was just about to start an openNTF project to facilitate all this, but really I think this is IBM's job. At least they could document some standards and provide some free Teamstudio Analyzer filters or something. Or maybe partner with Teamstudio or Ytria and provide free versions of some tools? For example, Ytria has tool(s) that allow you to set UI properties of fields, forms, and views. How about a free version that sets these things to the new Hannover standards?

   And if you think this is all crazy, just look at what happened with iNotes. There are several similarities between iNotes and Hannover. iNotes was the long-awaited sexy UI answer to web mail. Now I personally don't like it, but I think that's mostly for performance reasons. Anyway, how many domino web apps have you seen that have followed this new "standard"? None, because IBM made it difficult/impossible to reproduce that look and feel in your own custom app. Will Hannover be the same thing?

1. 97  Rick  | 7/27/2006 8:33:18 AM

   @93 Ed,

   I hope you will post a response to @79, because we've run into the same thing with IBM. It seems they're pushing everything BUT Notes, which is pretty confusing.

   And given the number of responses and the feelings expressed here, it seems this is worthy of more widespread attention at IBM.

   Finally, thanks for providing a forum such discussion. You may take a beating at times, but it's really useful as a means of staying in touch with current issues.

1. 98  Carl http://www.iminstant.com | 7/27/2006 9:12:36 AM

   Where's Quickplace in this discussion? I have always considerd QuickPlace the competitive response to Sharepoint.

1. 99  Nathan T. Freeman http://www.openntf.org/nathan/escape.nsf | 7/27/2006 9:13:35 AM

   @96 - What would you have someone write in order to handle this? I've done a TON of UI polish work on Domino applications, and I can't even begin to think of how you'd automate a transition on that. Techniques like show/hide controls on action labels, or transitioning from 3-paned UIs to more explorable embedded view structures are what make the apps have more polish, not something like switching to native-style edit fields.

1. 100  Thomas Schulte  | 7/27/2006 9:19:27 AM

   What David says @96 is something that has to be taken into consideration. We did some work to just make !!HELP!! look somehow like the mail template when it comes to navigation and this was a PITA work.

   One of the problems with Domino/Notes is that there is no standard of how things are working (especially when you webify a database, count the possible solutions to add a Names selection within the delivered notes templates) and nothing that could be seen as a standard for the UI. If IBM would just provide a "BaseTemplate" where you could configure your own navigation and the views that can be seen by the user and some other things like configurable keywords, a method to configure database access to other notes databases, configurable field validations and so on. Such a "BaseTemplate" would be nice as a starting point for developing your own applications.

   I am also thinking that IBM is missing some points here.

   Sorry to say that but the discussion database, the office libraries and all this other templates that come for free are "outdated" in programming style and user interface definition and can no longer be taken as truly value adding gifts to the customer. Ok there is one exceptions and that is the journal which has at last a UI that should be taken serious. To me it seems as if the developers at IBM who develop Notes applications are not trying to take developing to the last borders of that client. That might be one of the reasons why so many features that would make delivering a better user interface much easier are only developed for 50% of what you could do with them.

   You want some examples for that? I can give you two or three handful without stopping a second. Some of them being SPR's for some years.

1. 101  Christopher Byrne http://www.controlscaddy.com/ | 7/27/2006 9:27:38 AM

   @98 - Did you not know that "QuickPlace is so yesterday"? At least that is what I heard an IBM Sales rep say to a customer the other day...

1. 102  Brian Green  | 7/27/2006 9:38:45 AM

   @96 - David, and others, are correct. It's critical that this next generation of IBM products allow developers to create a nice GUI. Everything depends on it. Here's a look at your competition:

   { Link }

   How is IBM preparing for the Windows-Vista generation of products? It's all about GUI. Give developers the tools to create apps with a nice GUI, and the applications will follow. "developers! developers! developers!" ;)

1. 103  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/27/2006 10:09:45 AM

   @96 - I couldn't agree more. Even using templates you end up with a lot of one-off design elements that have to be manually touched to update to a new look and feel. Having a way to set application-wide settings for how design elements should look would be a huge start. Or (*gasp*) have Notes apply the OS visual styles.

1. 104  David Frahm  | 7/27/2006 10:27:00 AM

   @99 Nathan - I don't know how you'd automate it, without a bunch of C API code at least. That's one of the reasons why I think this is IBM's job. They should build GUI upgrade tools into the R8 Designer IDE.

   Does anybody know if the CSS support in Hannover is better? If it worked better then you could maybe separate your presentation layer enough to make GUI upgrades possible. This is the kind of thing I'm hoping IBM is doing with Hannover -- and not just "putting lipstick on the pig" when it comes to Notes UI capabilities. If they changed their architecture of UI elements, then maybe upgrading the UI wouldn't be so hard.

   Given the timeframe for Hannover release, either IBM is already planning some solution in this area and they just haven't released any info yet, or they thought just redesigning Mail would be enough (again) and there is no plan beyond that.

   I would love to know. With all the focus on the UI, maybe unlike iNotes there is going to be a solution with Hannover. Maybe Mary Beth Raven will surprise us with some info soon? If they change/add the right things to the Hannover client now, then add the tools into the R8+ eclipse-based Designer that could start to look like a decent roadmap.

   Personally, as someone who is passionate about GUI's and has 10 years invested in Notes/Domino, I'm really hoping IBM considers that even if they win the UI war next year, it may need to be fought all over again if they don't change their product to be easier to keep the look-and-feel up-to-date.

1. 105  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 7/27/2006 10:33:19 AM

   Is there a site, either managed by IBM or not managed by IBM that markets Exchange to Domino? I know it happens. Is there somewhere to get competitive info as to why sharepoint is so bad? There's so many moving parts it's not funny, yet, as I understand it it's one of the fastest growing products (in terms of adoption) in MS history.

   I'm former Iris and have a business around Lotus/Domino exclusively.

   My customers aren't saying to much about moving to Exchange. Yes it comes up, and committees are formed, consultants are brought in, but when they think of all that's tied to Domino (beyond mail) it becomes pushed out- almost cost prohibitive. The customer that will spend any amount of money to do what they want, I don't know how much you can do to stop it, particularly if they are not considering price, ROI, or other standard value-add metric. If it's political then there's very little IBM or the BP can do.

   I don't believe the problem is technical (i.e., upgrade the UI), the UI is made to look like Outlook (or even if the Outlook connector actually can scale and works realiabily) it would be something else. In fact the problem (in the software industry) has always attempted to be solved by a "feature war". When it's not about features at all. Personally I like the messages IBM on whole is delivering. LS2006 was crisp, on point, and there was a collective view of great opportunities ahead. The "gloves off" is awesome.

   I'm not confused by the message (any more). Yes the Websphere/Workplace, db2 backend through a monkey wrench in for a lot of us battling it out for business and attempting to explain it to our customer base. But the message has evolved and I'm hearing that feedback from customers as well. IBM can do a better job of embelishing the wins more though.

   So it's not all doom and gloom.

1. 106  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/27/2006 1:22:33 PM

   @99 - Reusable cross-database components would be a good start. Microsoft did that way back in VB3 with VBX's and expanded it with OCX's. Of course since you can't even easily share current Notes design elements the idea of componentizing it and redeploying from a central template is absurdly unlikely.

   I'm noodling something that might address it, but it requires some hefty DXL knowledge, which I don't have yet. Looks like yet another thing to add to my list.

1. 107  John Ryan  | 7/27/2006 2:19:10 PM

   @93 Ed,

   First off, let me say, I love your blog and all that you do for the Notes/Domino community...I have been and am truly appreciative.

   Yes, my message is heartfelt and passionate. That is the way I am about Notes and Domino. I was trying to express that it is the customer who is confused as to what is happening with Notes and Domino...not me. We continue to develop and consult exclusively with Notes/Domino, Workplace and Portal. We are loyal, adamant and committed to these products. But Ed, I get so frustrated darn it.

   My message was about perception and hence the reason for that CIOs decision.

   Also, it is NOT my intention to spread any kind of FUD. I guess I am tired of hearing the Notes vs Exchange and now Notes vs. Sharepoint arguments...and the same ol' rebuttals...when it is simply like comparing apples to the produce section (as somebody previously coined). For the record out there...we do not doubt the future of Notes and Domino, we move with it, we are committed to it.

   I will also say, for us, this past year has been our best consulting and product sales year.

   I do not want to be negative. That is not my intension. To throw in a positive here. We have had our best year ever with the Lotus products. Further..we are working on a project that has tens of thousands of Notes users and continually score SMB solutions.

   I look forward to other responses from you Ed. I hope you have a good vacation and welcome a call from you when you get a chance. I will send you an email with my number if you don't have it.

1. 108  Doug Bruce http://www.welldynamics.com | 7/27/2006 2:24:42 PM

   "But therein lies the problem - small company, small IT team, no dedicated Notes Admin/Developers, so no resource to create apps to add value. A set of standard templates (helpdesk, holidays, sickness, asset tracking etc..) would allow them quick wins (even if they need tweaking later), to prove Domino is more than a mail server and therefore not a straight swap with Exchange."

   400 user company - we have TWO, count em, TWO IT people for the entire organisation, spread across 5 timezones in 11 countries. How ? it's down to Notes. One network / notes admin, one helpdesk person. Notes just runs for us. 178 days of uptime on our mail clusters. Automatic fault restarts on the systems - so i don't get called out at 3:00am.

   As for applications - we use off the shelf applications, that we researched on Google/SearchDomino/OpenNTF etc

   We've not paid more than $2500 for a site license for any application, with the exception of the Help Desk (Eden's PowerPac), and that's a recent deployment.

   We get the source code, so we can change the app if we want. We get the vendor to help install and configure it, and we always get a support contract. For us, Notes and Domino just works.

   That leaves me all my other time to do nothing but troubleshoot a global Win2K3 active directory. Given the issues that can arise with it, there's no way i'd be bolting on Exchange AND Sharepoint, without going cap in hand to management and asking for a shedload more IT people.

   Practically every year the Exchange / Outlook debate crops up. More so this year since we acquired an Outlook shop (75 users, $650k annual IT support costs). Each time, we go through the costs - licenses, hardware, applications, and increased staff. Each time, the million dollar price tag kills the deal. That's $1 millon + consultant time for 400 people. Sexy UI's aren't worth that sort of investment to any CFO with half a brain.

1. 109  GarryL  | 7/27/2006 5:20:18 PM

   @108

   "Sexy UI's aren't worth that sort of investment to any CFO with half a brain."

   And yet it keeps happening, to companies big and small.

   "We've not paid more than $2500 for a site license for any application"

   Sounds good! What sort of apps do you run Doug?

1. 110  David Bell  | 7/27/2006 5:49:13 PM

   @79 - Hannover is not a "whole new Java app" - have you read any of Jeff Eisen's Hannover 101 post ? Much of it is using the native C code that is the core of the Notes client.

   Much confusion exists because far too many people are too ready to accept what anyone tells them, and are not sufficiently bothered to research information for themselves.

   @95 - "But they are already anticipating a return to Exchange because of a lack of enthusiam over the Notes UI. As with a lot of these situations the bulk of users don't really mind what they use, but a small group of power users are pro MS, and use the UI as a stick to beat down the Domino advocates"

   Tail wagging dog syndrome. Choosing a business tool should be based on business requirements. Nice GUI is not a business requirement.

   @104 - What is a "GUI upgrade tool ?" - how could IBM know what you want your GUI to look like ? You have to put effort in to get something out. There are lots of great looking Notes apps out there; even with the best designer tools in the world you can still build horrible looking apps.

   @106 - templates ? You can have many different apps inherit from some core templates for consistency. DWA design elements are nearly all re-used from one database (http usage admittedly). There is very little in the actual mail file design relating to DWA.

1. 111  Doug Bruce http://www.welldynamics.com | 7/27/2006 6:34:55 PM

   @109.

   Yeah, but being a trained management accountant helps me a ton when i'm talking ROI with the bean counters. I also take a lot of time to explain the costs to the financial people - i have them on my side in nearly every review, even as far as having them work on the CEO (definately an Outlook guy).

   The databases i deal with almost daily (as a user) are from small vendors:

   Absence Manager from SLR Consulting

   Expense Manager from Red Hawk Software

   PowerPac from Eden - that's a big investment for us, but replaces an aging VHD system that we were never happy with on the reporting side.

   We've also started down the road of consolidating a ton of home grown QHSE databases - that's probably going to go to ETQ since we've spent 50-60k internally on the apps, and can replace them all with ETQ's sytem for the same price.

   I've also done development - nothing sexy, but it's workable stuff in my spare time on internal databases.

   We also have some apps that use Swing Software's Office integration. Mostly financial stuff - i guess with the developers time each database was over 2.5k at the final count, but not by a lot.

   All in all, we have 20-30 applications, not as many as i'd like, but we've gone for quality apps that hit a lot of people over large apps that only hit a few - we were bitten badly by that during our initial notes roll out.

   It all adds up, and there's no clear ROI win on moving. We'd need new servers for email, because we simply can't replace the applications in a short period of time for any sensible spend.

1. 112  Ganapathiram Natarajan  | 7/27/2006 7:03:02 PM

   I'm not sure if I'm missing a point completely, but why should LotusNotes compete with SharePoint by releasing more templates?

   Just to look at it, new comers (SharePoint) will have to do a lot more work to compete with a product (like LotusNotes) that has proven itself time and again for years to be a good platform to develop and deploy a customized applications. I think, the ability to develop custom applications (and quicker compared to other platforms) is the important aspect of Notes.

   I think, MS is exactly doing what it needs to do to prove the capabilities of SP through so many templates which IMHO is a POC of their products capabilities. I think, its not fair to expect a matured product like LotusNotes to do a POC by releasing more templates.

   Custom applications developed and deployed in many companies itself is an answer/POC to what Notes can do. There is openNTF to demonstrate value of Notes with functionality and eye candy too :)

1. 113  Henning Heinz  | 7/28/2006 1:46:13 AM

   I deny the tail wagging syndrom for the GUI. GUI design is important and it can be a business requirement.

   It can help lowering training cost. It can help that you do not have to force people to fill their personal calendar but that they are doing that because they like it and finally want it (especially if they can sync it with their toys).

   There are people that can develop complex VBA macros but deny to learn how to send a link for a Notes document.

   Even if it is all wrong. If Hannover is done right I can double my revenues and I have nothing against that vision. I think a lot of Business Partners know at least one customer that lurked at Notes but hesitated because he feared the internal discussions. There are companies that are willing to switch back but they need a good reason to justify the move. A good GUI is not a cure for everything but especially for gaining new customers it can be a real boost.

   Take all the companies that use Notes for applications only but switched to Outlook for mail. All machines are well prepared, the client is there just the mailfile is missing.

   Of course this situation will not increase revenues but it can get back attention to the platform and Notes developers get out of defense.

   There are customer that are happy with what they have. They like the current GUI and they truly agree that GUI is not a business requirement. There are companies where Microsoft has offered a lot of freebies, from Sharepoint to Exchange and even LCS on top and some free consulting but the customer preferred to stay with Notes and Domino. I think this is a very strong commitment.

1. 114  Mike McGarel  | 7/28/2006 2:34:25 AM

   In the article "Exchange 2007 Nears" in this week's (July 24) eWeek, Microsoft "is investing deeply in SharePoint for collaborative functionality, and SharePoint will be the vehicle for fulfilling the 'portal promise, the workflow promise and to deliver the modern collaborative scenarios,' Myerson said." Myerson is Terry Myerson, general manager of Microsoft's Exchange Server group. Sounds to me like the Sharepoint road map goes right into Notes territory.

   I've been Notes/Domino developer for over seven years and a fan of Notes for longer. Add me to the list who'd like to see more "out of the box" functional applications. The term "custom" appears to be a dirty word to many CIOs these days.

1. 115  GarryL  | 7/28/2006 3:06:01 AM

   @112

   "new comers (SharePoint) will have to do a lot more work to compete with a product (like LotusNotes)"

   I think you're slight missing the point. Like many Microsoft products, early versions are a bit naff, but by 3.X its normally good enough for people to be very happy with and they can build from there, and Sharepoint 2007 is looking very good ( reagrdless of how it works internally - business people do want to know that stuff).

   The point that is being made over these last 100+ posts is that many companies do not want just a RAD enviroment, however easy it is to build apps. They want at least some out-of-the-box, which Notes does not provide at present.

   Wow, a lot of posts to this entry! Feelings must be high here. I hope people who can maybe do something around this are reading.

1. 116  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/28/2006 3:19:43 AM

   "I hope people who can maybe do something around this are reading."

   of course we/they are. Some good internal discussion been prompted by this thread in the last few days. That doesn't mean we all agree, but the thread has prompted some thoughts and sharing.

   Having said that, I agree iwth a lot of what Gana says in @112.

1. 117  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/28/2006 4:38:59 AM

   Whilst you can't disagree with Ganapathiram's point that "Custom applications developed and deployed in many companies itself is an answer/POC to what Notes can do", this is of course something that is largely "invisible" -- the nature of the beast is that many large companies, with huge arrays of custom Notes applications, will never divulge anything about those apps. So it's a hidden thing. By contrast, out-of-the-box templates are there for all to see.

   I can understand why IBM doesn't want to tackle this, but surely there's a business for some enterprising BP right there: a "starter-pack" of templates for small businesses who have the SMB Domino packages for example?

1. 118  Ethann Castell http://www.caliton.com | 7/28/2006 4:55:21 AM

   @117 Ben, I think someone pointed out earlier that NotesApps has been aiming at this space.

   I'm concerned that Sharepoint being evaluated against Notes/Domino would have appear to have much more built-in (read "no cost") functionality. I also have some concern that Microsoft products sometimes, somehow, just seem to end up the server when you install the operating system. Kind of like how Outlook finds its way on the Windows client installations.

1. 119  GarryL  | 7/28/2006 4:57:38 AM

   @117

   Yes, sounds like a good starter. Nobody is asking that we don''t develop our own solutions anymore, just that many many businesses either do not want to have custom built apps with the in-house support that entails, or they simply do not have any Notes developers to hand.

1. 120  GarryL  | 7/28/2006 5:00:35 AM

   @118

   And they will compare. Sharepoint out-of-the-box stuff with Domino's (almost) framework like approach?

   Hmmmmm

1. 121  Ganapathiram Natarajan  | 7/28/2006 6:46:59 AM

   @115, By new comer I was trying to say that SP has not yet been adopted as mainstream RAD like the way notes is today, and I don't deny that MOSS 2007 (and WSS 3)looks better than the previous releases but I'm still not sure if it will be as good and as developing custom applications in Notes. Those companies that know the value of notes (through custom LN applications, though its invisible as Ben says) will expect the same from MOSS 2007. Besides, comparing MOSS 2007/WSS3 1 to 1 with LN may still not be right. But anyway, thats not the point of this discussion thread.

   @117, I agree with your "show case capabilities though templates". I overlooked them.

1. 122  Ganapathiram Natarajan  | 7/28/2006 6:59:16 AM

   Just to clarify to my [121] above. By show case capabilities through templates, I mean applications sufficiently complicated that show the possibilities on what notes can do as a custom application, not as in "answer to SP templates"

1. 123  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/28/2006 7:26:12 AM

   @118: I did check out that NotesApps site: it certainly looks like a step in the right direction, promising.

   But the IE-only site coding and non-functioning pop-up boxes for the trial apps kind of put me off... I'm none the wiser as to what their offerings are like. The ones on the site seemed to be focussed on Domino (vs. Notes client) apps, too.

1. 124  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 7/28/2006 9:23:38 AM

   @110 - The problem with templates is the design task will replace modified design elements with the version in the template. You can't say "replace the action bar properties on this view but leave the selection formula alone". It overwrites the whole thing, and that's what I'm referring to.

   In contrast, if all those action bars were done in VB and based on the same OCX, upgrading the OCX could change all the action bars (depending on how it is implemented). To the best of my knowledge there is nothing like that in Notes, hence the concept of using DXL to apply canned design changes to modified design elements but leave the user-defined content in place.

1. 125  Rob McDonagh http://www.CaptainOblivious.com | 7/28/2006 9:28:16 AM

   Ed, does IBM actually provide customer support for the templates that already ship with Domino? How many support calls do those templates generate? It *is* the support you're mostly concerned with, when we talk about more (and more useful) templates coming "out of the box," isn't it? Or is it the development time? I find it hard to believe IBM can't afford to create some killer templates to provide the same kind of "instant demos" Sharepoint includes. We're not talking about rocket science here - those Sharepoint apps are just pretty but shallow starting points to open up a conversation.

   I work for a very large (Fortune 150) organization that has no intention of moving away from Notes or WAS, and we're very interested in Portal and the Managed Client. But I've also been in a different position, where Notes was compared "out of the box" to both Outlook and Sharepoint, and I've had to devote a lot of personal time to build apps that prove the point that Notes > Outlook + Sharepoint. And I know I'm not alone in that, either. Can't IBM help us out here? Rocky's SAP work is a great step, as is the Blue Rinse for DominoBlog. But can we agree that those of us fighting for Notes/Domino out in the field shouldn't have to give up our weekends just to compete with Microsoft on a level playing field?

1. 126  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/28/2006 9:49:08 AM

   @125 Rob it's not just tech support -- it's the ongoing development which gets lumped into "support" too. Translation into 20+ languages, bug fixes, feature adds...and admittedly, the track record there even with the existing out-of-the-box templates isn't ideal.

1. 127  David Bell  | 7/28/2006 10:32:39 AM

   @113 - Your point about training cost is valid with respect to designing "intuitive" apps.

   But I think you can separate "nice looking" and "intuitive".

   You can have a very functional and easy to use GUI that does not look nice. By contrast, you could have a very nice looking app that behaves in a completely counterintuitive way from a functionality perspective.

1. 128  David Frahm  | 7/28/2006 3:07:52 PM

   @110 - A couple other reputable people here thought that what I had to say was worth considering, so I'm not too crazy, right? It can be or do whatever you want -- that's what's so great about software. Heck, that's kinda WHY they call it software.

   Maybe since you're with IBM you think I'm being too critical, or asking for too much. And maybe I am. Have a look at some of the declarative UI stuff in the Java space, though. Much of the world outside of Notes is moving toward a more dynamically generated UI that can be upgraded way easier than Notes. Maybe there's nothing feasable that can be done, or maybe when/if Notes lets go of C and becomes a full Java plug-in to eclipse all that Java stuff will help.

   "Nice GUI is not a business requirement"

   Isn't that what most of the Hannover buzz is about?

   @126 - Ed, if ongoing support of the existing templates is such a problem, why don't the get created with a little better design? A little encapsulation here and OO code there, some coding standards even... Might help your support issue and provide better examples for developers.

1. 129  Ben Poole http://benpoole.com | 7/28/2006 3:54:01 PM

   With regards the Notes UI in general, I agree it's a big deal at the moment -- to make changes requires a lot of work all over the NSF. However, vendors like YTria have proven that you can change a lot of stuff at once if you try, and there is always DXL.

   But with Hannover, surely these issues go away? One of the main points of embedding Notes within the Eclipse framework is to use Eclipse for the UI, no? i.e. get rid of the outdated Windoze-centric C UI, and go for the readily extended Eclipse GUI instead.

1. 130  Jeff Crossett http://www.crossedConnections.org/w | 7/30/2006 2:55:03 PM

   Being a recently converted Domino developer to .NET developer, this is a few of the questions that I hear often, and are some of the reasons what Notes is not looked upon kindly by some.

   - Can you call a web service form the notes client easily?

   - Does the Notes client render HTML correctly?

   - Can a developer access the http session?

   - Can it integrate easily with the #1 office suite?

   - What is this 32k limit thing, and can I get around it?

   All of these questions can be answered with a "yes", but not without alot of explanation and/or workarounds/hacks.

   As for the templates, it is not a matter of how good they look, but they have to show how easy it is to develop, and they have to show value quickly. The only thing the Notes templates do is show how podunk IBM has become with this product.

   It is very difficult to convince people that there is a future with Notes since they have seen with their own eyes how much IBM has poured into Workspace/Portal and how little has gone into the Notes client. A recent comment I heard was "Does Notes know that 1999 came and went a long time ago?".

1. 131  David Frahm  | 7/30/2006 3:57:28 PM

   @129 - Is there any statements or evidence that IBM plans for Notes to be a true eclipse application? I think that's the next evolutionary step, but has IBM said its coming?

1. 132  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/30/2006 11:15:02 PM

   @131 Yes. That's what "Hannover" is.

1. 133  John Howard  | 7/30/2006 11:27:16 PM

   Big government departments down under are also in the process of dumping Notes for Exchange/Sharepoint.

   Defence and Family and Community Services .. big players.

   A shame.

   IBM doesn't really care about us down here.

1. 134  Bob http://www.bobcongdon.com/blog | 7/31/2006 2:46:42 AM

   @132: The answer is a little more complicated than that. According to Jeff Eisen's blog: "While the focus of Hannover is clearly the Eclipse-based client, there will still be a "traditional" technology non-Eclipse version of the Notes client delivered as part of the Hannover release. We have admittedly been not too succinct around the nomenclature of how to refer to the Eclipse vs. the non-Eclipse Notes instantiation."

   So there are two Notes clients in Hannover: one is Eclipse-based and the other is not.

1. 135  GarryL  | 7/31/2006 2:58:38 AM

   @133

   Thats a real shame. I would imagine, especially in Government, that once a few go, the rest eventually follow.

   @134

   My understanding is that its the same code, but with different front-ends, although I am not 100% sure on that.

   Overall, has this been the largest number of posts to a blog entry here? Certainly point to some sore areas within Notes that people have.

1. 136  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/31/2006 3:10:35 AM

   Imagine 20 of those comments were from the same person.

1. 137  GarryL  | 7/31/2006 3:44:33 AM

   @136

   :)

1. 138  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/31/2006 3:46:30 AM

   21

1. 139  GarryL  | 7/31/2006 3:49:48 AM

   lol, ok you got me.

   I'll save you a post. This is now 22.

   I think those who wanted to have made their feelings known. Maybe time to move on.

1. 140  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/31/2006 6:13:39 AM

   @134 As Jeff says, "We have admittedly been not too succinct around the nomenclature of how to refer to the Eclipse vs. the non-Eclipse Notes instantiation".

   The focus of the release, the focus of the marketing messages, the focus of the future of Notes (post-this release), and most of the innovation are coming in the Eclipse-based version of the client. So while yes, there's a non-Eclipse Notes install in the next release (and I think this is a good thing to avoid rip-and-replace scenarios), the primary release is the Eclipse-based version.

1. 141  John Foldager  | 7/31/2006 1:36:28 PM

   @13

   That's the problem with IBM. They make a lot of noice to say "wow... we now have a Notes client for Linux".

   You just have to use "THIS" Linux... not the others that you currently use. Take a look at the IBM official

   developer discussion forums to see how many times people have asked for Linux client support. Actualle for

   Designer support! It's great that IBM has finally woken up and sees Linux as a strategic platform... I just

   wonder why they do it now when they have been talking about Linux for the last ... what is it... 10 years?

   @15, @68

   Regarding the sync with mobile we really, really need a 100% perfect sync solution which also takes into

   account the repeating appointment. How hard could it be? Isn't IBM a member of the SyncML initiative?

   @18

   Steve's blog template looks interesting... just too bad that it can only handle 32K data at a time... IBM?

   When is the 32K limit removed? Notes could take a really big step ahead if this limit was removed. How

   hard could it be? Will it be removed in "Hannover"?

   @20

   I agree. If Hannover is so open as IBM like us to believe then it should be no problem at all to sell to

   existing and new customers!

   @108

   Doug, a company so dedicated to Domino... what technology do you use for your website? Just curious.

1. 142  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/31/2006 2:21:31 PM

   @141 oh come on.

   Translate this post:

   - IBM delivers Linux, lots of marketing noise -- who cares, it should have been there years ago and lotus marketing still sucks.

   - I have this one issue that IBM hasn't addressed, even though most of the mobile solutions come from partners, and until they do, everything's bad.

   - What 32K data issue are you talking about? Clearly I've blogged plenty of entries bigger than 32K? How is this issue affecting the ability for edbrill.com to be a technorati top 5000 blog, running Steve's template. Have you even looked at Steve's template?

   - Why should Doug's company necessarily use Domino for their public website? He's describing their internal usage. There are great public Domino websites, but that isn't a requirement for successful Domino usage.

1. 143  Volker Weber http://vowe.net | 7/31/2006 2:58:50 PM

   You are now Technorati Top 10k. ;-) { Link }

1. 144  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 7/31/2006 3:35:43 PM

   I'd say 5315 is close enough to 5000 :-0

1. 145  David Bell  | 7/31/2006 4:31:49 PM

   @128 - I think the problem is complex. The GUI is not just what the client provides, but what the Domino developer has built INSIDE the NSF. And this comes down to developer choice. For example, I as the developer choose a particular graphic file that I use in a variety of different places but which you might think looks terrible and antique. But changing that may have a huge impact on the user community.

   So how do you bring consistency to that for all the legacy applications that are deployed ? You can more easily modernize the client-specific elements than the application-specific elements.

   I don't think Hannover is different in that respect when talking about classic Domino applications. It is bringing the client-specific elements. Applications built for R3 and not updated at all will look like R3 apps. That is the promise of backwards compatibility. I do not believe there can be a magic transformation at the NSF level because we simply will not know WHAT is at the NSF level.

   Are you talking about something like a search|replace in all templates / databases for a particular element ?

   Now I am not a developer, so I am unsure as to whether or how any of the Eclipse UI framework or toolkits like SWT could be used WITHIN the application to allow additional GUI controls etc. in Hannover.

   Maybe that would be something Jeff Eisen would be better suited to explaining.

   Ed - could you pose that maybe as a topic for Jeff ? If or how do the things that Eclipse UI components bring influence classic (i.e. non-composite) applications ?

1. 146  David Bell  | 7/31/2006 4:44:36 PM

   @128 - sorry forgot this in my last post.

   ---------------------------------------------------

   "Nice GUI is not a business requirement"

   Isn't that what most of the Hannover buzz is about?

   ---------------------------------------------------

   Obviously, in today's market people are buying with their eyes, over their heads. To compete, the UI has to be better even though the decision making process is horribly flawed.

   But, how often do you see on an RFP "How does your application compare aesthetically to the competition ?" or "Describe how you ensure our users like the look of your application". But, you sure are asked about the functionality of your application. Does it do the job ?

   I have heard a story inside IBM, which I think is ok to discuss, since there are no real specifics. It goes like this.

   IBM and MSFT are asked to build a proof-of-concept application for a customer.

   MSFT's POC looks great but it contains only about 50% of the functionality specified by the customer and even some of that does not work correctly. Most of the effort went into the look and feel.

   IBM's POC contained all of the required functionality and it all worked, but because all of the effort was spent on the functional requirements, little time was spent on the look and feel.

   Guess who won ?

   If you were running a business, looking for competitive advantage and trying to get good ROI from your IT, why on earth would you pick the MSFT solution ?

   It looks great, doesn't do half of what you want, and costs a ton more to support because it breaks a lot. Well done - you have made a great decision for your company to buy a cosmetic facade that covers up a poor application.

1. 147  Jeff Crossett http://www.crossedConnections.org/w | 7/31/2006 8:14:54 PM

   @142

   In the midst of 141's post are some valid issues that have been ignored by Lotus and IBM for a long time. Let me spin these differently:

   For example, if there is a sore point with mobile sync solutions that never seems to get addressed, might there be an underlying problem that these partners cannot work around?

   I suggest you do some research around the 32k text field limit, and what effect it has on web services in Domino. This single issue has prevented Domino from being a solution platform for our company too many times.

1. 148  Doug Bruce http://www.welldynamics.com | 7/31/2006 8:32:28 PM

   @141 - we use SLES and Apache for the public website, because it's totally HTML based, and not actually under IT control. It used to be NT4/IIS - at least we had a hand in that decision.

   If i could, i'd let you see the internal products website built using LEI + CSS, and hosted on domino. It's identical in every respect to the Apache one, and performs better under load - now if only the MS SQL side would actually stay up as well as the LEI side things would be better.

   As for Sync software - i remember finding a vendor that did core sync software for Notes and Outlook. It's pretty much the same software that everyone else uses, just with a customise UI. German ? I'll have to go look it up ...

1. 149  Pedro Quaresma  | 8/1/2006 4:32:53 AM

   I have to wonder why so many people complain about the 32k text field limit in Notes? It's not like we Notes developers keep complaining about the 8k varchar limit in SQL ;)

1. 150  Jeff Crossett http://www.crossedConnections.org/w | 8/1/2006 6:21:53 AM

   @149

   Nobody complains about the varchar limit because a developer can use the TEXT type which is 2GB limit.

1. 151  vowe dot net http://vowe.net/archives/007530.html | 8/1/2006 9:33:19 AM

   OpenNTF.org is the clearinghouse of open source Lotus Notes templates. Template is Notes parlance for an application. Some of them have been downloaded thousands of times, one help desk application almost 15,000 times. And OpenNTF has only started to count downloads last year. Some of the templates work around limitations...

1. 152  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 8/1/2006 9:41:17 AM

   @141 re "THIS" Linux...

   IBM _supports_ a specific version of Linux. You don't have to use it. IBM isn't saying that Notes won't run on other versions of Linux. They're certainly not rigging it to verify that it is running only on a supported version of Linux. People are already figuring out how to use the 7.01 Notes client with other versions of Linux, just like they have been figuring out how to run Domino on non-supported versions of Linux for several years. See, for example, here: { Link }

   This is no different than it has always been. IBM supports specific versions of Windows and specific Mac OS versions, too, for the client. IBM also supports specific OS versions for the server. Resourceful people still manage to run the products on other versions. They don't get support. Big deal. They know that going in.

   The only difference is that there are a lot fewer Windows versions out there to choose from; and one or two always dominate in the installed base, and IBM will always support those versions. There isn't an obvious small set of dominant Linux versions, though, and if there were it might change next month... so IBM will undoubtedly make their best effort to support what it feels are the best versions with commercial support, they'll let the community support Notes on other versions, and they'll let the results shake themselves out over time.

1. 153  Axel  | 8/1/2006 10:40:31 AM

   if it were *so* easy to develop a sound suite of productivity templates on vanilla notes, why so many business partners failed in that effort?

   Certain journalists may talk that its *easy* with traditional Notes. Have they ever tried themselves?

   The evolution towards eclipse based/more java is a right step towards greener pastures. Nearly all of the *surviving* consulting firms did do the same. Certain people think they are smarter than the market. Unfortunatedly only in their dreams.

   Microsoft believes that new technologies like .net, webservices and some such make their lives easier. Notes community should show the same attitude towards SOA and Eclispe, heck-even-Websphere and the J-word.

1. 154  David Bell  | 8/1/2006 1:15:02 PM

   @151 - "This is no different than it has always been. IBM supports specific versions of Windows and specific Mac OS versions, too, for the client. IBM also supports specific OS versions for the server. Resourceful people still manage to run the products on other versions. They don't get support. Big deal. They know that going in."

   They do get support. IBM will not turn a customer away because they are running a non-supported configuration. But, IBM reserves the right to have customers test the problem on a supported configuration to ensure the problem is really in the product and not something specific to the underlying OS which has not been QA/tested during the development cycle.

1. 155  Richard Schwartz http://www.rhs.com/poweroftheschwartz | 8/1/2006 3:15:18 PM

   @153: OK, it was an overstatement to say that they get no support, but really the point is what we agree on: that if you run into a problem on the unsupported platform that doesn't reproduce on the supported platforms, you've got no guarantees of anything... so you might as well consider that you're on your own. It doesn't matter whether the unsupported platform is Ubuntu, Windows Me, or even Windows Vista when it comes out.

1. 156  David Bell  | 8/1/2006 4:51:13 PM

   What is happening to the comment sequence numbers ? My @151 response should now be a response to 152, and Rich's @153 response is really in response to 154.

   None of the timestamps appear to be that close that something slipped in between my response and the last comment at the time I submitted my response.

1. 157  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 8/1/2006 6:52:44 PM

   My fault, I have to approve trackbacks manually and they don't get called out separately. So much for using new features of Dominoblog. I need to upgrade the site design.

   Vowe's comment @151 is what threw it off.

1. 158  Pedro Quaresma  | 8/2/2006 4:13:57 AM

   @150

   SQL has text/ntext. Notes has RichText.

   Notes doesn't even have the 32k limit on string vars (LS) since 2003 or so.

   So what exactly is the issue with "the 32k limit" ?

   It seems to me that ND does:

   - Mail server at least as well as exchange

   - Mail client at least as well as outlook

   - Data storage at least as well as SQL (different, I know, but you get the point)

   - Application platform at least as well as Sharepoint Server/Portal/whatever it's called...

   ...but someone will always find something to complain about it, because of a feature in R4 or similar :)

   Perhaps it's about time I start complaining about Windows, simply because v1.0 was monochromatic ;)

1. 159  Karl-Henry Martinsson  | 8/2/2006 3:58:40 PM

   @146 (and many more):

   At Lotusphere 2005 (I think, could have been 2004) there was a presentation regarding best practices. I think Wild Bill was one of the presenters, but again I may be wrong.

   But I have not forgotten the content of the session. The presenter was talking about how important it is to have a standard for coding, as well as for form design. Hidden items in red, pass-through HTML in blue, etc. I been using a similar style for along time.

   He then told a story about a new developer that started at the company. The new developer was told to start designing the user interface, then add the functionality. That was the order they did thinsg there. The developer came back the day before the application was going to be shown to the customer for some kind of beta-approval. The UI was ugly and he spent all the work on teh functionality.

   They took the application to the customer, who questioned every single little detail. The customer was not happy.

   They went back, and the presenter fixed up the UI, without changing anything in the functionality. A few days later they took the application back to the customer, and the customer did not question anything, just said "OK, that's exactly what we want".

   So people DO look at the applications. We geeks may not always understand it. Lotus Notes has a reputation to be butt-ugly compared with MS apps, and I agree.

   Remember, take a regular office worker that know Word and Excel, and he/she can probably without any big problems use Powerpoint, Outlook or any other program that conform to Windows standards, probably with little or no training. Put the same user in front of Notes, and they do not have a clue about how to do things.

   That is the bottom line. Make Notes look like a modern application. And that includes ALL bundled templates/applications.

   And I also think that small shops will need simple applications coming in the box. They probably do not have a dedicated developer, the Notes admin may do some development on the side. Make it easy to get applications up and running.

   Where are the UI/design specifications from IBM published, by the way?

1. 160  David Bell  | 8/3/2006 5:37:38 PM

   @146 - "Where are the UI/design specifications from IBM published, by the way?"

   Which UI design elements ? You mean for the core client ?

   There is no way IBM could publish UI elements for NSF applications. Everyone wants something different.

1. 161  David Frahm  | 8/4/2006 8:47:00 AM

   @159 - Good point, and very related to the theory that "to the user the user interface IS the application".

   Explained by much smarter people than myself, such as { Link }

1. 162  John Foldager http://www.izone.dk | 8/8/2006 5:39:52 PM

   @142

   Okay... maybe most mobile solutions come from partners, so I'll have to address the sync problems there. Just wondering... doesn't Exchange or Outlook have built-in mobile sync module which almost all companies needs? I know Domino can't have it all... but still I'm hoping ;o)

   Yes I have looked at Steve's template. Please search through the LotusScript libraries for "32767" ;o) The 32K limit ({ Link } ) for text fields I can somehow understand and also the 1GB limit for RichText fields. That's okay. But what if you are to replace a string "on-the-fly" in a RichText field containing 128KB of data? How would you do that without a lot of work-arounds?

   Then off to the @DbLookup limits. Why not leave it to the developer to do a @Subset or something similar to retrieve only the amount of data he/she thinks is needed instead of limit it to 64K?

   @147

   Thanks Doug! :o)

   @148

   Thank you for the info. As I said I was just curious.

   Regarding the sync software... did you fint it? Do you know if it handles repeating appointments correctly when moved/updated/deleted?

   @149

   I can't see how you can compare they two? What I'm trying to say is that if we did not have the limits (of course we have the OS/memory limit) we could do SO MUCH MORE with Domino. I think many developers have lots of ideas of how Domino could be used if only we didn't have to use sometimes 50-90% of our time on a little specific fix to handle these limits. Workarounds. Please note that I'm still a HUGE fan of Lotus Domino and I'm constantly pushing my own and Domino's limits of what is possible.

   @151

   As you just say ... "work around"... ;o)

   @152

   You're right :o)

1. 163  Tom Dobrucky  | 9/23/2008 1:00:10 PM

   Alright so I haven't read every post but here is my take. I have migrated a couple companies (gulp! I'm ashamed to say) to Outlook / Exchange. Each time it was nothing more than what I call Microsoft bigots at the helm being cheered on by a hand full of ... how do you say it... Suck ups! The company I just left had a NEW CIO. We were / are very good friends BUT he was a Microsoft Outlook bigot nothing more. He just couldn't stand the fact that Notes didn't act like Outlook so he found like minded people to bolster his case and now they are planning to move to Microsoft. Now I will make this comment based on my observations. Each and every time it has been quiet behind the scenes very sneaky coordination with Microsoft. If it is such a great product why all the back room parlor cloak and dagger meetings? I am a very straight up individual but the way I have seen it done in each occurrence makes me shake my head. Basically, the Notes guys are never part of the planning and instead of being invited to training and learning the new technology (not that I really care) they are for all intensive purposes shown the door. Now this may sound somewhat cynical but that has how it has been. My two cents anyway.