ZDNet UK: Q&A: Lotus wakes up to social networking

January 29 2007

A really good interview with Mike Rhodin.  Two quotes worth highlighting:

Five years ago, Notes did not seem to have a direction; what has changed?
If you go back five years, by then most people had made their email decision, Notes or Exchange, so a lot of the focus in Lotus was experimenting in new spaces. If you look over the last few years a couple of things had happened.

One, we are re-focusing in on the core business, making sure we have the core email applications, after we've delivered what we think is a great return on investment story around the server and the capabilities on that side.

And we have been harvesting some of the experimentation that went on. What you have seen here [at Lotusphere this week] is the culmination of four years' work, to really harvest new technologies, experiment with different ways of doing things and then bring them into a much-simplified product portfolio.

I now have everything built down into five core services around messaging and calendaring with Domino, sharing information with Quickr, real-time communications with Sametime, social-networking platform with Connections and portal. We have built the technology so they are not overlapping, but synergistic.
As strong a strategy on offense as Lotus has had in a long time.  

Then there's this bit:
Do you have any plans for a consumer product like Outlook Express, a product that is responsible for a lot of Microsoft's growth in consumer communications?
First of all, we are not a consumer company. Check the name, IBM is International Business Machines. And I challenge people on the assumption that a lot of growth comes from Outlook Express. I think if you look at what people are using at home, I don't think they are using Outlook Express any more. I think they are using Google Mail, Yahoo. I think they are using a lot of the "born on the web" -based email services. The phenomenon of the Outlook client at home is starting to dissipate.
This came up during Q&A at "ask the developers" on Thursday, and the applause was loud for the question.  Honestly, I'm more on Mike's side than the crowd's.  

Why?  Well, much as I'd love Notes to be pervasive, the consumer value of yet another e-mail and calendar client (vs. Outlook Express, Thunderbird, and web-based services like gmail and Yahoo) is not necessarily as big as some seem to think.  The costs associated with a "free" Notes client are fairly steep, and the infrastructure needed to support consumers is fundamentally different.

I believe Notes would need to have a lot more "out of the box" value to make it a worthwhile consumer client.  Years ago, something called "private edition" was tried with Notes R5 in Europe.  It didn't get any traction, despite some consumer-focused applications and an easier installation routine.  Now, a lot has evolved in the years since, but the delivery model for consumers has, too.

I'm not sure what the person who asked the question during "ask the developers" meant about IBM having made a commitment to deliver a consumer version of Notes "a year ago".  Can't remember any such commitment -- and the issues outlined above applied then as now.

Still, I don't want to be naive about the influence of consumer technologies in the workplace -- and am open to ideas on the right way to approach this.

Link: ZDNet UK: Q&A: Lotus wakes up to social networking >

Ed Brill | Chicago, IL USA Category:  Lotusphere2007  Add/View Comments [33]

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  1. 1  Sean Jennings  | 1/29/2007 11:11:57 AM

    That people use the free "Outlook Express" bundled with Windows certainly did result in some businesses deploying "Outlook" for email; even though they are two different beasts. I agree that this will be less of an issue going-foward, especially as MicroSoft has killed Express and instead has "Windows Mail"(?) for Vista.

    I agree that another email/calendaring product for consumers would have little appeal.... BUT...

    surely the message we have been shouting when people want to migrate to Exchange is that Notes is more than just email/calendaring?!?!

    Notes is about collaboration, sharing documents, shared databases, etc, etc. These are all things I want and need to do as a consumer too. We all have interests and activities outside of our work personas that would benefit from having access to the same kind of powerful tools that we use at work.

    Unfortunately this would require either alot of 'out of box' templates or alot of ISV's producing consumer-orientated templates.... instead maybe we'll see this occur around Expeditor/Eclipse?

  1. 2  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 1/29/2007 11:15:53 AM

    As a Notes home user(no server just pop3) I don't see why we need a "simpler/dumb downed" client for home usage.

    Having said that, it would be nice if certain functions did not rely on a server(i.e mail rules!).

    And yes, many people use webmails these days, but as was pointed out at the Sphere and in most journals, how do corporates retain google mails for archiving?

    So the issue perhaps is about the awareness individuals have about their accountability for their emails if they will use them for business purposes.

    Personal usage I think most people are not like myself, I have my emails (that were in Notes) since 1993. If they did care, they woould most likely use a local copy of something and be able to archive it in some fashion.

  1. 3  Axel Janssen  | 1/29/2007 11:25:10 AM

    As a sometimes active member of an european domino forum (german, more specifically) there are sometimes people who ask us about this notes consumer client released many moons ago. Even the less sceptical use to answer that Lotus Domino has its strength more as a corporate groupware platform and less as a consumer client for email.

    I think that such offerings need ongoing investments to keep up with thunderbird & friends. And for the lotus community this effort may take away money from other endeavours.

    Maybe with an even more open infrastructure based on Expeditor an open source community could be atracted to deliver more consumer focused offerings?

    From what I here from our hiring efforts juniors do have a really broad exposure to all things Eclipse RCP. It must be very popular in universities, at least in this country. So there might be a chance.

  1. 4  Ben Rose http://www.jaffacake.net | 1/29/2007 11:44:26 AM

    I think there's little point in targetting Notes at consumers.

    Smartsuite was (is?) a better product but still totally failed in the home arena, despite being included OEM with many branded PCs.

    The only people who want Notes at home already know how to do it.

  1. 5  Matt White http://www.11tmr.com | 1/29/2007 12:00:02 PM

    I agree, there's no real market for consumers, however the benefit to trying to convert techies may well be worth the effort. If there's anything we've learned last week it's that small user groups (such as the Dogear active user base) can produce "intelligent" results.

    It may be enough to persuade people if they get a chance to play with the Notes client in their off time. The addition of the ODF editors would certainly be enough to entice some people that the client is worth a look.

    Matt

  1. 6  Jess Stratton http://www.mattandjess.net | 1/29/2007 1:19:40 PM

    I think there's a market out there somewhere for a home version of the Notes client - however, in order for there to be value, it would have to come pre-packaged with some "nifty fifty"-type applications.

    Otherwise, as we always say - there's just no point if you are only using it for mail. Let's be honest - the average home user would have a hell of a time figuring out connection documents, and SMTP accounts settings in the Personal Address book. I'm savvy, and I even run into trouble sometimes when it comes to setting up a simple outgoing mail setting for my home ISP. ;-)

    I think the ones that complain the most about Notes are the business users that change companies and came from a MS shop. Granted, a lot of this will change once the beautiful UI's of Notes 8 comes, but the majority of home users are business users too.

    When making an argument, people need to be told how it helps them on a personal level. How will it benefit THEM? They don't care if moving to Notes will help "leverage their existing IT platform". It's all about the company, which doesn't affect them personally. However, if they use the Notes client at home and it comes with a really cool database for managing Girl Scout cookie orders, then maybe the word will spread what Notes is REALLY about.

  1. 7  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 1/29/2007 1:25:08 PM

    I don't recall anyone saying Lotus had committed to a consumer version of Notes, I thought he was saying Lotus had committed to an special version for the academic space.

  1. 8  NeilT  | 1/29/2007 2:28:30 PM

    Whilst I am glad that someone echoed my comments at LS and whilst I understand Mike Rhodin's position, I have to take issue with the "I don't think they are using Outlook Express any more" statement.

    Either Mike knows that people are not using OE any more, or he doesn't. In this scenario, knowing the use of a product and its impact are important.

    Let's see where I'm coming from and see if I'm completely wrong?

    Almost every email user will see Notes for the first time in Work. Those that have already seen it will either be family members of people who use it, or will have met it in College/University.

    There is very little which is "easy" about Notes today. From the way you set it up to the way you use it. I'm willing to stand my ground on that as my experience in the migration market (to Notes), so far, forces that statement.

    I spend quite a lot of my evenings away from home contributing to the computer section of a message board for a UK newspaper. I spend quite a lot of my time talking to housewives, retired people and also people who use mail at work but have a computer at home.

    There are three categories of mail user I interact with:

    1 - Those who use OE because it's there/configured for them

    2 - Those who use the ISP web mail

    3 - Those who use some pop client (whatever they find best) plus a public service like Hotmail/Yahoo/Gmail.

    #1 and #2 are in the majority by a long way. They use them for a variety of reasons. Many ISP's provide scripts to configure OE or Outlook in their installations. Because they are free and always there it is preferable for them to do this. That will continue with Windows Mail in Vista. So there will always be a large community who "stick the isp cd in" and configure whatever messaging solution Windows has available. Therefore the OE style community are not going away any time soon as the majority of home users use only their ISP mail.

    Now Gmail has its online system which many people use, Yahoo has its public and subscription services. Microsoft has Outlook/Exchange and Windows Live Mail with add on subscription services. IBM has Notes and Domino and is not in the public market at all.

    Gmail is gaining ground on the basis of its public services and is trying to sell corporate messaging on the back of it. Yahoo has teamed up with BT in the UK and is going for full corporate sized sites (up to 110k users). Microsoft is slowly pushing live but has a legacy market to protect.

    I have heard that Yahoo have already tried to get corporate business on one site with an initial offer of $2 per user P.A or more directly about an enterprise server without disk. I heard recently about Google trying to do the same with a 55k site.

    Microsoft will get there eventually and, in fact, if Notes and Domino were to out Exchange they would get there sooner. The fact that Google were considered arcane and not a serious consideration will not hold forever.

    Microsoft has already diversified into the living room. Google is in everyone’s face and Yahoo is a very strong brand. IBM is? International Business Machines....

    So Notes has virtually 0 visibility to the new corporate users, 0 leverage in terms of public add on sales and very little appeal in its current incarnation. In order to improve that, companies are going to have to radically rethink their Desktop/Laptop hardware strategy. I’m wondering where the strategic thinking and planning comes in terms of Notes Domino in the face of Web 2.0? Or even Web 3.0 which is more to the point.

    Mike Rhodin’s statement, whilst very strong, leaves me thinking “So they know it all and are going to tell the world”.

    There is playing to your strengths. Then there is planning for the shape of the future.

    But then I would say that as it is my personal hobby horse... :-)

  1. 9  Irv Schor  | 1/29/2007 2:37:04 PM

    It seems that its been years since the battle for a corporate email system was influenced by the mindset of home (i.e. Outlook Express) users. That benefited Microsoft's marketing machine in earlier email battles (or at least in some experiences I've seen), but it seems times have changed. If there was ever to be a 'home' version of Notes it would need to be comprised of higlights something that home users might want (particularly the 'youtube' and 'myspace' generation might want, but wouldn't necessarily see that option transgress into the business world... just the mindset of using Lotus Notes from a marketing perspective at home would suit well if using Notes in the office. It might be nice, for example, to offer some (please nobody get mad) Notes client to client (ala peer to peer) replication of family blogs, videos, mp3s, etc.) that bypass the need for email and 3rd party sides such as youtube. ...a sense of comfort knowing your stuff isn't out in public internet, but still available to your audience.

  1. 10  Mike Robinson http://www.invcs.com | 1/29/2007 3:00:37 PM

    Hmm, so would OE be as "popular" as it is had it not been tied to the Windows desktop? Meaning would someone choose it among Eudora or another free client. Who knows. Since I'm assuming this consumer grade version of Notes Mail client would be "free", then that begs the question how does it get "visibility" among other comparable free products? Probably a greater question, why would I chose it? Ed's summary is right, the ROI for IBM isn't there- saying that it will create visibility alone isn't sufficient.

    I like where IBM/Lotus is going, and wouldn't adovocate for diverting engineering resource to something that's not going to make money for anyone.

  1. 11  Carl Tyler http://www.iminstant.com | 1/29/2007 3:40:29 PM

    Just my $0.02, I use Outlook express for my yahoo mail account.

    Why? It worked better and was easier to setup for internet email than Notes. Why do I use an email client versus the web for doing my mail? It's better, it's quicker, it's richer. If I'm travelling I can still use the website.

    Similar story with my work email, I use Notes for my business mail, I use DWA if I'm travelling and need to hit it in an emergency. But I have colleagues that still use Outlook against our Domino backend.

    All my relatives and exgirlfriends use Outlook express for accessing their online mail accounts, whether they be Yahoo, GMail, tiscali, comcast etc. Why? They all shipped with easy to implement settings for outlook express. I didn't need to download or install anything else for them to get outlook express.

    If Lotus wanted to enter the consumer email space they should have done it 8-10 years ago. They should have taken Organizer and added an inbox, Outlook Express would have been dust if IBM had OEMed that like crazy at a really cheap price. People did (and still do), love Organizers UI. It was just missing email, it already had iCAL and VCS support and that was 8 years ago!

    I still swear by Notes, but even relatives that know I swear by Notes have been setup on Outlook Express by me.

  1. 12  GarryL  | 1/29/2007 4:11:09 PM

    I don't actually think you need Notes itself. What may be needed is a consumer type product, or two, from Lotus. What they would be, I don't know - some cool Web 2.0 application, if that's not too open!

    What's needed is to get the 'Lotus' name in peoples heads. It's all about midset, really.

    Anyway - when can I get my grubby mits on Notes 8 beta then?

  1. 13  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 1/29/2007 4:20:51 PM

    The answer is simple: Deploy a DWA/Sametime/Connections infrastructure as a public network like Gmail. Make it broad and open and treat it like one of those public sites.

    Gives you a monster showcase. Gets past some of the problems with the more complex offerings where smaller shops have to make heavy investments to even AUDITION a product. Let's you rollout much faster updates. Gives you the cool factor of the "perpetual beta" environment.

    I agree with Mike, though... nobody gives a crap about OE anymore. Your relatives and ex-girlfriends are not a market barometer and aren't C-level decision makers (well, probably not, anyway.)

    If you aren't Microsoft or a gaming company, your software delivery vector is the web, period. IBM's got all the tools to get into that game. They just have to decide to spend the money on the servers & bandwidth.

    Man, I'd love to see it!

    But it's a billion dollar decision, so I doubt it.

  1. 14  Stephan H. Wissel http://www.wissel.net/ | 1/29/2007 5:16:52 PM

    HHm.

    Eventually the answer to "Private Notes" or "no private Notes" lies somewhere very different. Instead of Notes why not release an Expeditor application that includes the productivity editors, basic email, calendaring, chat and RSS reading. It could be a combination of existing OpenSource engines (Mozilla mail, RSS Owl, GAIM) coated with the Expeditor UI. This would be close enough to resemble Notes, minus the enterprise functions/complexity of Hanover. Also it wouldn't need to be the full Expeditor stack (?). This could spin off additional interest in Plug-ins and composite applications leading to additional gravity to attrackt developers. So 2 birds with one stone.

    My 2c

    :-) stw

  1. 15  Keith Brooks http://kbmsg.blogspot.com | 1/29/2007 6:26:34 PM

    @13 Nathan of course is right, and it will be available at openntf.org.

    Just kidding, but he is correct, and it would cost a billion in the end and for what return? MAYBE something, probably nothing or marginal at best.

    The issue is not a consumer one, Lotus gave that up many years ago and IBM still does not know the word, but from a corporate viewpoint, IBm is doing it right and while we can all gripe that 100million users can't be wrong, IBM has a perpsective and that is the path, right or wrong doesn't matter just like the CEO flavor of the year for some corporations.

    R8 will be great for corps and probably younger developers who want to get into corps, which has been missing lately.

    Younger generations that "get" Notes, well it's been a while since we all started in it.

  1. 16  Bernard Devlin  | 1/29/2007 6:41:15 PM

    What does Notes really offer as an email client (that's all that's really being discussed in this topic)? By ND8 it <b>might</b> be cross-platform (as Thunderbird or Polarbar already are). The really key points that Notes could have for non-corporate users are a) easy application development, b) replication, c) security. There are plenty of tools offering easy application development (cross-platform too, e.g. www.runrev.com). Most computer users have <b>no idea</b> about the security to which they are exposed whilst using Windows and being attached to a network. Most users don't know they could easily and securely back up their personal data to Notes dbs on internet servers (well, it would be even easier if IBM gave 2 figs about WebDav).

    But Microsoft will probably corner that market with Sharepoint long before IBM does (although MS probably will screw it up when it comes to security). There's no point in expecting end users to 'get' Notes if you don't make it clear to them what it offers them that is important and different. They know they don't need another email client; what they don't know is that they need secure remote storage.

  1. 17  Philip http://philip9876.rediffblogs.com | 1/29/2007 7:03:55 PM

    Last year, i had the opportunity of attending Lotusphere comes to you for the first time at Singapore. Looks like the city is not there in the list this time ;(

  1. 18  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 1/29/2007 7:24:49 PM

    I know I was there :-) I believe additional dates will be added for LCTY in southeast Asia -- none of them are listed yet.

  1. 19  David Price  | 1/29/2007 8:41:58 PM

    I don't mean to take this off-topic but I think one thing IBM can do is get QuickPlace/Quickr into hosted configurations. I know that the 'Lotus' hosting sites do offer but it is something one must really search out.

    Discussions with Lotus in Chicago have indicated there may be a licensing issue that has prevented the wider offering from the hosting providers. It seems that every time I look at a Unix/Windows hosting providing, they also offer Exchange and often SharePoint as options.

    @13, a Notes 8/DWA/Quickr/Sametime site would be a risk but perhaps something to do in specific regions?

    I think the product advertising this year has been great and I am glad to see it. I am not sure my wife would like me supporting the Quicker Picker-Upper, something along the consumer product line is intriguing.

  1. 20  Uwe Fritz  | 1/30/2007 5:36:54 AM

    Back to Private Edition:

    The Lotus Notes R 5.0.1 private Edition was released at the end of 1999 with downloads and on "Full-Version-CDs" with Computer-Magazines in Germany. In the early 1999 there was nearly no visibility of Lotus Notes in Germany. After this Marketing Push, every Computer-Freak in Germany knows about Notes.

    This early Version of R5 was a little bit Overkill for a 486-Consumer-PC with 8 Meg of RAM and Win95, but there are still some people out there today wich are using this version.

    Today you need more than an simple email-Client: Instant Messaging, Chat, ODF-Editors. You need an offline-Mailclient when you want to keep your mails for more than a day. A Consumer-Notes should bring a All-Day-Use and All-In-One-Solution for our Children.

    Consumers should be aware that there is more than Windows Mail and AOL-Instant Messenger. Children will (sometimes) show it to their parents, parents will know Lotus Notes when it comes to a decision at work. The "next generation" is not just another Software-Release, it is the next generation User.

    A new "Private Edition" would makes Lotus Notes visible again. And it brings notes back to better usability, because Consumers are not IT-Specialists.

  1. 21  Stephan H. Wissel http://www.wissel.net/ | 1/30/2007 7:50:39 AM

    @17 Singapore - 20 March 2007.

    Say hi, I'm presenting there.

    :-) stw

  1. 22  Timothy Briley  | 1/30/2007 9:33:33 AM

    "I now have everything built down into five core services around messaging and calendaring with Domino, sharing information with Quickr, real-time communications with Sametime, social-networking platform with Connections and portal. We have built the technology so they are not overlapping, but synergistic."

    Call me silly, but I've really got a problem with this statement. I've always thought of the core purpose of Notes/Domino to be the sharing of information and now Mike is stating that this is the job of Quickr, with Domino just handling mail and C&S. Can someone explain to me why his statement is correct, because I just don't see it.

  1. 23  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 1/30/2007 9:45:00 AM

    @22 fair point and it's an oversimplification. Quickr will provide document sharing services for Notes users (as well as non-Notes users), so I believe that's part of the point he's making. He did leave out the situational application aspect of Domino...

  1. 24  Volker Weber http://vowe.net/about | 1/30/2007 11:05:09 AM

    Ed, I have to side with Timothy on this one. I also came back from Lotusphere, that Notes&Domino are positioned as Mail and C&S. If you review the OGS webcast, it becomes fairly clear.

  1. 25  Ed Brill http://www.edbrill.com | 1/30/2007 11:07:28 AM

    What about composite applications? We demonstrated that in the OGS.

  1. 26  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 1/30/2007 11:19:23 AM

    I'm with Timothy and Volker, but I would refine it a bit say that Domino is being positioned as mail and C&S. Notes is being positioned as a thick client consumer of plugins, which can be NSF apps or a variety of other sources. Composite apps are another kind of client plugin and have nothing to do with Domino.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with this, and I appreciate Lotus at least suggesting that this is the direction things are going. I would like to hear something a little more clear on this subject, though.

  1. 27  Volker Weber http://vowe.net/about | 1/30/2007 2:28:10 PM

    Composite apps and Property Broker are not a Notes thing but rather an Expeditor thing. Which Notes apps will be enabled for composite applications out of the box? Mail, C&S, maybe contacts.

  1. 28  GarryL  | 1/30/2007 5:33:26 PM

    As someone who has been extremely disappointed and confused over the way IBM has treat Notes in the past, I am really pleased with the way things are going now.

    The addition of a slimmed Quickr with Notes for documents is a huge plus. Connections, especially the Activities application, is something we will definately be looking at. We looked at the Workplace Rich Client many moons back and a lot of that now appears to be in Notes 8 in some shape or form.

    With that client though you got a simple project app with the ability to create Gantt charts - is that anywhere to be seen now? MS Project is way too expense and top heavy - something lke that would be very useful to us.

    All round, congrats to Lotus!

    I'm looking forward to the Notes 8 beta - anyone got any exact date in February?

  1. 29  David Bell  | 1/31/2007 1:35:26 AM

    @22 - Quickr is provided as an application running on top of Domino, just like its predecessor, QuickPlace. It's primary purpose is to share information, but it is not the ONLY way Domino can share information.

  1. 30  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 1/31/2007 11:06:31 AM

    @27, Contacts is not a maybe. It's a fact. I have it running in front of me this very second.

    Quickr > QuickPlace > Domino Document Library > using Office to store stuff on your own harddrive.

    So Mike focused on the aspects of the new technologies as end-user solutions instead of a platform for people to BUILD end-user solutions. Good lord, it's about time THAT happened!

    Saying comp apps are an Expeditor thing is a bit misleading. Comp apps are the INTERSECTION OF NOTES AND EXPEDITOR. That's why they use the word "Composite." As in, build from differing sources.

    I mean, if it runs in the client environment, it interacts with NRPC calls, it's provisioned from a Domino server -- how is that not Notes? 'cause you didn't build it in Domino Designer?!

  1. 31  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 1/31/2007 12:19:13 PM

    @30 - I think you and I are pretty much on the same path. I agree that it is because of the Expeditor framework that the Notes client has the ability to provide composite apps, and I'm not knocking that in the least. It gets to be a bit of a slippery slope, though, because until Expeditor and Notes 8, Notes and Domino were joined at the hip.

    With Expeditor as a basis, you can deploy Notes 8 and have it surface all kinds of components and content that were either not possible or much more difficult previously. I'm waiting to see what, if any, changes are made in Lotus' strategy or direction as a result of that.

  1. 32  Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 1/31/2007 4:11:10 PM

    @31 - I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I've never been particularly clear on "until Expeditor and Notes 8, Notes and Domino were joined at the hip." No they weren't. You could build apps on Domino targetted for browsers and mobile devices. And Notes could consume from HTTP, IMAP, various RDBMS, and as a COM container could surface just about any old crazy thing you wanted.

    Composite apps as such aren't all that new. Notes has always played well with the COM/OLE model. It's just now they make a LOT more sense because the toolkit is more directly integrated. Yes, there are new capabilities at a UI level, and that's great. But it's not like you couldn't build, say, a VB app with all kinds of exotic interfaces that wrote back into an NSF!

    Heck, just a month ago I wrote a tool that, from an IIS-driven intranet site, automatically launched Notes and created an email with an attachment in it that was a PDF downloaded from the IIS site. Is that a "composite app?" I don't know. But the code works.

  1. 33  Charles Robinson http://cubert-codepoet.blogspot.com | 1/31/2007 11:08:34 PM

    I merely meant that Notes *without* Domino becomes much more interesting with Notes 8. In previous versions not having Domino in the picture at some level didn't make much sense, but with Expeditor as the underlying framework for Notes 8 suddenly it's a whole lot easier to do thing things we had to work hard to hack together (if they were possible at all) previously.